Preferences

londons_explore parent
Due to the scaling laws of rocketry, it should be easier to make a huge rocket. You can afford to have proportionally bigger safety margins on everything.

I suspect that Musks desire to have everything reusable has severely eaten into those margins though. I personally think he'd have been better off making only the first stage ('booster') reusable for the first few years, which then lets you develop more things in parallel later (the first landers can be on mars whilst you're still figuring out second stage reusability)


rsynnott
Historically this hasn't _really_ been the case; the N1, of course, was a bit of a disaster, this one seems to be similar. Saturn V worked, but had a number of near-misses over a small number of launches. Beyond those, nothing in the super-heavy category has enough launches to draw conclusions.
Retric
There’s little need for big rockets, falcon heavy has flown 11 times including the initial test flight Feb 2018.

Going fully reusable may change that equation, but first stage reuse probably isn’t enough to make the program even close to worthwhile.

HPsquared
Full reusability would totally change the game. It'd be an order-of-magnitude cost reduction. Maybe even 2 orders of magnitude (cost per kg to orbit)
Retric
Full reuse can be anywhere from more expensive to multiple orders of magnitude cheaper, thus could rather than would.

Questions like rate of successful launches, amount of payload sacrificed, etc really change the economics of the whole process. If the total payload is worth 1 billion a moderately more expense launch with higher success rate can be cheaper.

floatrock
you still thinking the mars line is anything more than musk's latest FSD or hyperloop distraction/hype story?
londons_explore OP
If you didn't want to go to mars, you wouldn't be making starship at all.

It's pretty clear there is barely enough commercial launch demand for falcon 9 (it already has ~100% of the non-foreign launch market, and there isn't a huge amount of price elasticity), so no reason at all to develop starship, apart from humans in space.

simiones
The first goals of Starship are putting a human on the Moon (this is what the US government is paying SpaceX for) and decreasing cost-to-orbit (primarily for SpaceX's own use with Starlink). Falcon 9 simply can't fly to the moon, it doesn't have the power. Also, both Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy are still too expensive for Starlink to make a good profit.

Mars is at best a long term goal for Starship, and far more likely to be just a nice story that Musk uses to motivate his engineers and investors.

mr_toad
Everything about the design of Starship, from the fuel choice, to the size, aerobraking capability, to vertical landing system says this is a rocket designed to land and return from Mars.

It’s a terrible design for anything else, because it can barely get beyond LEO without in-orbit refuelling.

None of the competing rockets (e.g. New Glenn) resemble Starship in the slightest, because none of them are intended to fly to Mars.

bryanlarsen
There are several other use cases that Starship is well optimized for. Not surprisingly it's also fairly optimal for building large LEO constellations, It's a little bit large for the current Starlink satellite size, but if the Starlink satellites get significantly larger and more capable, Starship will be fairly optimal.

Given SpaceX's business, it seems safe to assume that Starlink was a design goal with at least a similar priority to the Mars goal.

Another use case it'd work fabulous for would be a LEO space hotel business.

Finally, it's also a great rocket for any use case that involves returning large masses, even if the return is from higher than LEO. Yes, it'll be a thirsty beast requiring many refuelling trips, but the tyranny of the rocket equation makes it hard to do any better. If you want to return dozens of tons from the moon or elsewhere you'd be hard pressed to do better than Starship.

LorenPechtel
Disagree. Falcon 9 is likewise not hydrolox. Hydrolox unquestionably gives you the most payload going the farthest for a booster of a given size. But why is booster size even in the equation?

For most purposes the customer does not care one iota about the booster, they are interested in the cost per kg to get where they are going. For low orbit hydrolox imposes more handling nightmare costs than it saves in amount of rocket, it is not the fuel of choice unless you're trying to impress.

(Now, things change considerably when you looking at deep space. But methalox or even kerolox fueled in orbit still beats hydrolox fueled on the ground. And hydrolox is much less storable--your rocket costs weight, necessary to reach orbit but once you're up there a smaller engine means less wasted mass. The only advantage to a bigger engine is Oberth and that is only truly relevant if you either care about time (Apollo took an inefficient path for this reason), or because you are going to carry velocity into deep space. Look at the flight path of the Webb. The booster flew higher than the maximum efficiency path because the deep space stage was puny. It wasn't powerful enough to circularize normally, the telescope fell back quite a bit before the engine had built up enough velocity to stay up. But it was worth wasting some energy on that in order to not lift as much engine away from the Earth.)

simiones
With the possible exception of the fuel choice, all of the others are requirements for a recoverable rocket that needs to land back safely on Earth. Mars and Earth are not that different, so anything that helps you land and take back off easily from Earth also help with Mars.
ben_w
I don't trust Musk very much these days, but one of the few ways I feel I can still trust him is that he seems to be genuinely and consistently motivated by Mars.

Falcon Heavy put a car in a trans-Martian orbit, and Musk has been about Starship-like things going to Mars before SpaceX managed to launch the Falcon 1, let alone them getting a chance to bid for the return-to-Moon mission.

But the Artemis mission isn't really about doing things sensibly, it's about pork barrels. You can tell by looking at the wild disparity between the vehicles, where there's this complex process to put a handful of astronauts on a space station and transfer them to a landing vehicle… but the Lunar Gateway is smaller than Starship, and I think small enough you could fit all the parts of the Lunar Gateway inside the payload volume of one Starship.

If the USA wants to go to the moon for its own sake, they could do it cheapest by just paying SpaceX for a ride, not all the other contractors.

You could do it with F9 it would just be assembled in orbit over multiple launches like one of the original moon mission profiles instead of single launch (that's also essentially the profile of the Moon and Mars missions in Starship except you're 'just' refueling the ships instead of assembling a larger vessel).
mlindner
Starship was started long before the US government spent any money on it. And Starlink is what pays for Starship development.
stevage
That's a great summary.
numpad0
He was named after the title of the ruler of Mars in a novel written by Wernher von Braun, so ultimate goal for him has to be Mars.

Settlement on Mars is out of one gravity well into another, so it's not clear if it's the best first location of a extraterrestrial human territory - Moon might be easier and more reasonable.

So the camp is split between Moon and Mars, and Musk has to be on Mars.

TheOtherHobbes
Mars is a desolate wasteland, and the Moon is an airless desolate wasteland.

There is zero chance of building a self-sustaining base on either within the next fifty years, and probably within the next century.

It's not a freight problem, it's an ecology problem. Designing a life support system that is stable and self-correcting and isn't in danger of running out of some essential raw material or element isn't just an unsolved problem, it's a barely considered problem.

Ironically - or perhaps not - it would be much easier to create a self-sustaining population of machines on Mars and/or the Moon than any project that relies on incredibly complex and messy human biochemistry.

awongh
Isn't there a degree of market creation that happens when there are big price drops though?

What sort of technologies become enabled when putting things in space gets cheaper?

jauntywundrkind
Really enjoyed the contrast in this submissions two months ago, which characterizes SpaceX as very popular, but for bigger deeper launches, ULA still bring the go to name. https://arstechnica.com/space/2025/04/a-key-spacex-competito... https://www.hackerneue.com/item?id=43640049
LorenPechtel
If Starship is basically fully reusable (he's insisting on absolutely no refurbishment, that could be relaxed a bit) then the cost per flight for Starship would be well below the cost per flight for Falcon 9. As you say, there's little price elasticity, the cost savings would go in his pocket.
s1artibartfast
There are other scaling laws at play as well. Defects that are not addressed by design safety margins.

This item has no comments currently.