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PaulDavisThe1st parent
To try to clarify for anyone reading about this for the first time ...

this all hinges on whether language in the tax code is interpreted one way or another.

Way #1: companies often try to claim many deductions on R&D expenditures, and the changed language makes it clear that all software development expenses can be claimed as R&D expenditure (which was not necessarily clear before).

Way #2: all software development expenses MUST be treated as R&D expenditures which requires claiming them as an amortized deduction (over 5 or 15 years depending on where they happen).

Neither the IRS nor Congress has clarified the intent of the change, and there are solid arguments for both interpretations. Way #2 is supported by the use of "shall" in the language used. Way #1 is supported by the fact that Way #2 is batshit crazy.

It seems that a lot of people are convinced that Way #2 is the intended one, despite its catastrophic implications for many software-based companies.


keepamovin
One could argue that the tax approach outlined in Way #2 rightly adjusts for the longstanding discrepancy where software development costs, particularly salaries, have been treated as immediate expenses rather than capitalized investments in software IP—an asset with enduring value. The explicitness in software development and employment contracts about the creation of IP suggests this capitalization is a reflection of actual business transactions, making the tax treatment more aligned with economic reality.

This change might not be as much an undue burden as it is a logical extension of tax principles applied across various industries. From this perspective, the software industry's ability to immediately expense these costs could be viewed by other sectors as an inequitable advantage, one that is now being corrected.

While the apprehension around these changes is understandable due to the added complexity and potential for increased tax liabilities, it's worth considering that some of the more intense reactions could be driven by a concerted effort from larger entities aiming to generate grassroots resistance against the new rules. It’s conceivable that the IRS, aware of the potential burden on smaller companies, might enforce these rules with a revenue threshold, thus sparing smaller enterprises from the need to capitalize software costs.

Moreover, it's crucial to recognize the benefits of capitalizing software expenses: it affords companies the opportunity to match tax deductions more closely with the productive life of the software. This can lead to a smoother tax liability schedule and cash flow, particularly advantageous for companies with consistent earnings and those that stand to gain from representing their software development efforts as capital assets on their balance sheets.

jandrewrogers
A major issue is that in many cases most of the software asset value is explicitly conditional on the continued involvement of the people that created it. The value of the code base is orthogonal to its existence. I’ve seen this pattern many times in software IP licensing (or startup acquihires).

There are many instances where companies buy the team that created software rather than the software itself because so much of the value resides there. For obvious and good reasons, a company has no ability to claim a team as an asset because they have little control over its disposition since people are free to work when and where they want.

The continued erosion of enforceability of non-competition in employment contracts, which I agree with as a matter of policy, aggravates this situation in that the company has few levers to ensure that software development has asset-like characteristics. Large companies with many revenue producing software products can amortize the risk but the great many small shops with a single software product cannot.

keepamovin
This is a fantastic point that I think the IRS needs to consider. Have you thought about how this reality interfaces with the seemingly incoming new regulations? How could they be made more fair, in other words more reflective of this reality you identify?
PaulDavisThe1st OP
I agree that you could argue all these points.

I have to agree, because I don't agree with any of them :)

While the actual duration of software value is neither the day it was created nor "forever", the idea that a fixed amortization schedule is appropriate seems clearly wrong to me. Even crazier that it would depend on the geographic location of the person who did the work.

The productive life of any particular blob of source code is an awfully complicated thing to talk about, and the idea that the tax code should attempt to incorporate such a concept into a relatively simplistic rule (or pair of rules) seems faintly ludicrous to me.

oceanplexian
> The productive life of any particular blob of source code is an awfully complicated thing to talk about

The IRS does this all the time. Code isn’t some special magic enigma, businesses depreciate property, trucks, aircraft..all of these are equally as complex as code or significantly more complex to value over time. Usually it’s simplified to some degree for practicality, as I’m sure this will be.

keepamovin
I completely agree with that! One requirement of effective taxation is having this granular, high-resolution inspectability of economic activity, but also keeping it abstract and general enough that it can be more efficiently be used a large number of diverse businesses.
keepamovin
I understand :)

So you think software development costs should not be capitalized, right? What makes you say that?

PaulDavisThe1st OP
I think it's more complicated than that. Some software is developed and then provides value to the company that owns it in a way that is clearly comparable to other capital investment. But lots of other software just isn't. There's also the problem of differentiating between ongoing work that is supposed to just be "maintenance" and essentially identical work that is "updates" and "new features". Even at the code level it is not always easy to tease these apart.

Also, the change to Sec 174 is related to R&D expenditures. This is also another aspect of trying to fit a multiheaded hydra into a small sphere: yes, some software development does share many similarities with R&D activities, but lots of software development does not (unless you label R&D in a way that is so broad as to encompass just about anything).

If the US wants to force amortization on software development expenses, I think that should be stated more explicitly, and with a much more detailed rationale. Just tacking it onto the "R&D" category really serves no-one very well at all.

keepamovin
> Just tacking it onto the "R&D" category really serves no-one very well at all.

Well, it is called Research and Development. Perhaps that is the right place for it? :)

But your point about it being tacked on is well taken. However, I don’t think this problem is unique to this instance. It’s similar to updating software. When you update the law, you often have to tack things on and find a way to make it fit.

To their credit, the IRS has taken pains to define what constitutes software, as well as to differentiate between what is merely maintenance—including bug fixes and so on—and what constitutes upgrades and enhancements. They’ve specified this quite clearly in the guidance, which perhaps addresses your concern about distinguishing these different activities.

You acknowledge that there is certainly software that companies create and then use or license to others, providing them with long-term value, much like an asset. However, you also suggest there’s a lot of software that doesn’t serve as a long-term asset.

I’d be interested in examples of the type of software that doesn’t provide that long-term value.

nodamage
> Neither the IRS nor Congress has clarified the intent of the change, and there are solid arguments for both interpretations.

Not true anymore, the IRS guidance linked above in Notice 2023-63 specifically indicates they are adopting interpretation #2:

"Section 5.03 - Activities that are treated as software development. Activities that are treated as software development for purposes of § 174 generally include but are not limited to:

(1) Planning the development of the computer software (or the upgrades and enhancements to such software), including identification and documentation of the software requirements;

(2) Designing the computer software (or the upgrades and enhancements to such software);

(3) Building a model of the computer software (or the upgrades and enhancements to such software);

(4) Writing source code and converting it to machine-readable code;

(5) Testing the computer software (or the upgrades and enhancements to such software) and making necessary modifications to address defects identified during testing, but only up until the point in time that:

(a) In the case of computer software developed for use by the taxpayer in its trade or business, the computer software is placed in service; and

(b) In the case of computer software developed for sale or licensing to others, technological feasibility has been established, product masters(s) have been produced, and the computer software is ready for sale or licensing to others; and

(6) In the case of computer software developed for sale or licensing to others (or the upgrades and enhancements to such software), production of the product master(s)." ‎‎

PaulDavisThe1st OP
This doesn't differentiate between #1 and #2. It clarifies what is and what is not software development (for the purposes of Sec 174).

The question remains open: is the intent that all software development expense MUST be treated an amortized capital investment, or that all software development (fitting the description above) CAN be treated in that way.

nodamage
If you read the entire document they make it clear it is now required to amortize SRE expenditures and the majority of software development activities (as I previously quoted) are now considered SRE expenditures.

"(3) Software development. Section 13206(a) of the TCJA added new § 174(c)(3) to require that any amount paid or incurred in connection with the development of any software in taxable years beginning after December 31, 2021, be treated as a research or experimental expenditure (and thus an SRE expenditure to the extent paid or incurred by the taxpayer during the taxable year in connection with the taxpayer’s trade or business)."

and

".02 Requirement to capitalize and amortize SRE expenditures. Taxpayers are required to capitalize SRE expenditures (as defined in section 4.02(2) of this notice) and amortize such expenditures ratably over the applicable § 174 amortization period beginning with the midpoint of the taxable year in which such expenditures are paid or incurred."

PaulDavisThe1st OP
OK, so based on this document (which I had not come across until now) I would say that the IRS is fairly clear that what I termed "Way #2" is the correct interpretation.

Which is, as many have noted, absolutely batshit crazy.

The only scenario that remains unaffected by this absolutely batshit crazy SNAFU is the case of a self-employed software developer who incurs zero costs related to their work. They simply collect all revenue as salary, pay normal tax on it, and they are done.

Anyone with any expenditures at all (contractors, employees, equipment) must treat these as capital expenditures, amortized over 5 (or 15 years for foreign based work).

It really is as bad as it could possibly be.

PaulDavisThe1st OP
I should add that's there is also vaguely middle-ground interpretation, which goes something like:

Way #1.5: if a company chooses to take R&D expenditures of any type as a deduction (which it is not required to do) then it MUST include software development expenses (which in turns means they will be amortized).

yieldcrv
unless they aren't deducting software development at all

there is no obligation to take a deduction. if you find yourself in a circumstance where its more favorable to not take a deduction then you don't have to report that transaction

> unless they aren't deducting software development at all

What business does not deduct salaries from their income when reporting taxes?

I'm open to a counter-example where this makes sense.

s1artibartfast
There are special deductions you can elect to take for R&D expenses. If you choose to deduct R&D expenses, you must include software development there.

If you do not chose to deduct R&D expenses, you can deduct software salaries as normal.

I personally think this makes a lot of sense.

PaulDavisThe1st OP
It may make sense, but your interpretation (one I happen to agree with) is what I called #1 above. It is still unclear whether the IRS regards the rules as requiring interpretation #2 (in which paying someone to do software development MUST be treated as an amortized, capitalized R&D expense) or not.
s1artibartfast
I think the only difference between what I said and your #1 is that it is more than just a statement that "all software development expenses can be claimed as R&D".

My reading is that it isnt just permission to claim all development as R&D, but an obligation to do so if you claim it all if you claim any. That is to say, no splitting it.

This is actually pretty common in other parts of the tax code, where you have discretion in how to treat costs, but different treatments come with different requirements. Selecting one treatment is what triggers the associated requirements.

Many people struggle to understand that the tax code is not just a set of rules, but also a set of choices.

As an aside, this is why the government cant simply calculate your taxes for you in many instances. Doing so involves several choices based on your long term strategy. A simple example is to take losses in the given tax year or carry them forward (when permitted). The IRS can't decide that for you, and your decision might depend on factors like if you think your tax rate will be higher or lower in the future.

Perhaps a more relatable example is when to take a IRA/401K withdrawal. Ideally you would want to do this in years in a year where you have a lower marginal tax rate.

yieldcrv
if you have enough other expenses that already nullified that year’s tax, and it is complex to file a certain remaining kind of expense then you don't need to do it
Aeolun
Wouldn’t that basically always mean you’re in the red already though?
yieldcrv
not every tax deduction uses cash so no.

between using borrowed funds, other tax credits, in-kind donations, carry forwards or carry backs from other tax years, you should be able to get it to zero or near zero without spending all cash/profits on hand

and then the corporation can have one financial circumstance that has nothing to do with your financial circumstance improved by payment from the corporation

theyre conduits, it depends on how much authority you have over the corporation

PaulDavisThe1st OP
this is the whole crux of the matter. interpretation #2 says that the law now says that you MUST ("shall") consider all software development expense as R&D expenditures that are amortized over 5/15 years.

i personally believe that the intended/appropriate interpretation is #1 - you MAY consider software development expense as R&D and include in an R&D deduction if you choose to take one.

but it is far from clear what was intended and/or how the IRS interprets it.

yieldcrv
that’s interesting well the IRS is going to get gutted anyway, I don’t see this particular issue being looked at with any scrutiny that requires litigation
PaulDavisThe1st OP
chance of IRS being gutted: not zero but close to it. that bill from the house is incredibly unlikely to even get a hearing in the senate, and even if it did and it passed, somehow, biden will veto it (and that veto will not be overridden.
dataflow
If it's so crazy that people think "shall" couldn't have possibly been meant to be taken literally, (why) is there no court case about it? Is that not possible at this stage in the process?
martinflack
As a law prof once told me, "shall" can end up being ambiguous in court, despite the common understanding.

I'm sure this isn't the best tutorial on the topic but it gives you a taste: https://www.barandbench.com/columns/shall-shocked-the-use-of...

throw555chip
In the military, they made it very clear to use how to read "shall", "must", "should", etc.

https://www.plainlanguage.gov/guidelines/conversational/shal...

psunavy03
Military SOPs and case law are not the same thing.
dataflow
> As a law prof once told me, "shall" can end up being ambiguous in court, despite the common understanding.

Perhaps it can be can be made ambiguous in some context if you try hard enough, but that doesn't mean it commonly is so, or that it is here.

> I'm sure this isn't the best tutorial on the topic but it gives you a taste: https://www.barandbench.com/columns/shall-shocked-the-use-of...

Thanks, but the only thing that link gave me a taste for is terrible strawman arguments. (Or a severe lack of understanding of basic English.)

If you have "shall be" in a sentence, then that phrase is the verb of interest whose ambiguity (or lack thereof) you must examine, not the "shall" on its own. Claiming "shall" is ambiguous because it changes meaning when you put "be" after it makes no sense. It comes across as the kind of argument a first-grader would make.

They write: If the substitution rule is applied in the sentence: “The employee shall be reimbursed all expenses”, you would get: “The employee has a duty to be reimbursed all expenses”. This created ambiguity for the simple reason that the intent appeared to state an entitlement of the employee and not to impose a duty on the employee.

Do they lack common sense when reading this, or do they struggle with English? It's like claiming "I have a carrot" is somehow ambiguous because "I have been a carrot" means something entirely different. Does that sentence need disambiguation with "I possess a carrot" or "I have a carrot, but have not existed, as a carrot"? Are these serious arguments?

torstenvl
Agreed. Their analysis inappropriately conflates the syntactical subject of a sentence with the semantic agent of the sentence.

It also violates the fundamental rule that changing a sentence into the passive voice does not effect a semantic change.

"The employee shall be reimbursed [by the employer] for all expenses." must necessarily mean the same as "The employer shall reimburse the employee for all expenses."

I think that in the first (ambiguous) phrasing there is an implicit (common-sense?) understanding of: the employee shall be reimbursed for all expenses if the employee asks for it or wants it, ie the employee has the right to ask for and only then the employer has the obligation to reimburse all expenses.
AnthonyMouse
> If you have "shall be" in a sentence, then that phrase is the verb of interest whose ambiguity (or lack thereof) you must examine, not the "shall" on its own. Claiming "shall" is ambiguous because it changes meaning when you put "be" after it makes no sense. It comes across as the kind of argument a first-grader would make.

But it's the same ambiguity, isn't it? Essentially whether "shall" creates an obligation for the taxpayer to claim it as R&D expense or an obligation for the IRS to accept it as R&D expense if the taxpayer so claims it, the equivalent of whether "shall" applies to the employee or the employer.

And in both cases the existence of the ambiguity is bolstered by the fact that the overly literal interpretation leads to a ridiculous result.

dataflow
> But it's the same ambiguity, isn't it? Essentially whether "shall" creates an obligation for the taxpayer to claim it as R&D expense or an obligation for the IRS to accept it as R&D expense if the taxpayer so claims it, the equivalent of whether "shall" applies to the employee or the employer.

What? No. How are you reading "the taxpayer shall do X" to mean "the IRS must do X"?

The text is incredibly straightforward: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/174

> (1) except as provided in paragraph (2), no deduction shall be allowed for such expenditures, and

> (2) the taxpayer shall

> (A) charge such expenditures to capital account, and

> (B) be allowed an amortization deduction of such expenditures ratably over the 5-year period [...]

PaulDavisThe1st OP
The crux here is: what are "the purposes of this section" ?

Does it

(a) define the rules and conditions under which a taxpayer may claim a deduction on R&D expenditure

or

(b) define the obligations of the taxpayer with respect to anything that Sec 174 defines as R&D expenditure (i.e. you must report it as such, charge it to a capital account, claim an amortization deduction)

AFAIK, nothing the IRS or Congress has said thus far has clarified this.

martinflack
Here's another article with possibly better legal citations: https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=aeee1c5f-28d7...

(I'm not saying it's good or bad, just passing on information.)

anon373839
I think the issue is different. It’s not whether “shall” means something other than “must”; rather the issue concerns the scope of the code section containing this language. For example, in the California Rules of Court, you can find a rule that that briefs “must” use 13-point type. (Rule 8.204(b)(4).) That provision is located within the title on appellate procedure, so it has no effect on trial briefs. Even if it said “absolutely shall with no exceptions whatsoever and under penalty of death,” it would have no effect in a trial proceeding.
pclmulqdq
I'm pretty sure way #2 is the letter of the law, but doesn't apply to a lot of kinds of software development that fit into the general sphere of "maintenance," only to new development.
Ldorigo
Can you explain to someone not familiar with US tax law why #2 is batshit crazy?
PaulDavisThe1st OP
#2 would imply that anyone who chooses to engage in software development (either personally, or contracting others to do the work) cannot consider the expenses to be regular (non-amortized) deductions.

This means that you cannot, for example, pay yourself a salary and have that treated like the salary you would receive if, for example, you had chosen to be a builder or an artist or a massage therapist.

Another commenter here touched upon what I assume would be the justification for this: with software you spend Y years and C money to develop it, then you sit back and collect revenue, therefore the C money you put it at the beginning is a capital expenditure. But that's rarely the case with any software. Either it is a perennial, on-going process that never stops, or it ceases to be a revenue source. There are exceptions (especially since the dawn of mobile apps) but they are not the rule.

It's also not clear precisely what the difference is between working as a self-employed software developer and a self-employed architect is. They are not exactly the same, but why the former should not be able to take a regular salary from the revenue available, and the latter can doesn't seem clear, let alone equitable.

If anyone has actually thought about things this way, they seem to have a model in their mind that all software development is done following a process of "build first, sell later". This just isn't an accurate reflection of how a lot (most?) s/w development takes place.

ryandrake
Veering into a slightly off topic and controversial opinion, but I always thought it was kind of unfair that corporations could deduct so many of their expenses and not pay taxes on them, but I as an individual cannot deduct most of my major expenses. I don't understand the rationale. Why can corporations deduct their cost of raw materials they use to make products, but I cannot deduct the food I need to eat in order to live? Why can corporations deduct the cost of the office in which they operate, but I cannot deduct rent on an apartment I live in? Why can corporations deduct the cost of company jets, but I cannot deduct the cost of my car? What is the moral justification?

If my salary is $80,000 and my expenses to survive are $70,000, I pay taxes on "$80,000 minus the weak sauce standard deduction."

If I'm a corporation and my revenue is $80,000 and my expenses are $70,000, I pay taxes on $10,000.

Not fair.

seanmcdirmid
People are taxed on income (with only certain deductions), corporations are taxed on profits. If corporations were taxed on income, lots of industries would become unviable, creating huge distortions in the economy. However, people generally have the same expenses (food for example), so at least it’s somewhat fair. It gets unfair and distortive, for example, when health insurance bought for you buy a company is deductible (to the company) but health insurance you buy on your own isn’t.

If corporations could be taxed on income without creating bad distortions, they probably would be. Even taxing profits creates a distortion (profits become double taxed as (1) profit and (2) dividends), leading to behavior like stock buy backs that wouldn’t exist otherwise.

ryandrake
> People are taxed on income (with only certain deductions), corporations are taxed on profits.

Thanks, but you’re just restating the problem. Income is not analogous to profit. We agree on that. Why can’t people be taxed on some measure of disposable income? Income After Necessities or something more analogous to net profit?

someguydave
Well the simple argument is that those corporate expenses ultimately benefit other people (customers) while your own expenses only benefit you. The corporation would just mark up prices to reflect tax expenses which would be paid by customers. So taxing corporate expenses would amount to taxing end-users twice.
mixmastamyk
Believe the income threshold, standard deduction, childcare credit, etc are there for this reason.

But they are capped. Otherwise, many folks might get expensive things instead of paying taxes.

gottorf
If it helps, just think of corporations as legal fiction to help organize the business affairs of natural persons that ultimately own the profits and losses (the "beneficial owners"). So every natural human ends up paying taxes, regardless of how many layers of corporations were involved between the source of the money and their eventual spending.
bcrosby95
I could see the argument for perennial still falling under #2: usually in perennial software, you're still building on top of that base you already developed. Basically any SAAS makes sense under #2 to me, despite how much it may suck.

But the contracting work I've done (custom, one-off software) wouldn't make sense under #2, and I don't know how it actually works under this change.

patmcc
If your contracting work is "company X hired me to write software Y" then any of your expenses (salaries, etc.) are normal expenses. For company X, Y is probably R&D (or a capital asset) and need to be amortized, as #2.

Just like if Ford hires you to build a factory - the amount you pay the plumber is a regular expense, but the bill to Ford is for a capital asset.

PaulDavisThe1st OP
> usually in perennial software, you're still building on top of that base you already developed.

Sure, but is revenue tied to work already done, or ongoing work? I.e. are you leveraging prior capital expenditure to realize current revenue, or are you in fact building new stuff right now (updates, features) that will generate right now (or at least, well within the 5/15 year amortization schedules) ?

The fact that the current work relies on earlier work is not in itself an argument that the earlier work was obvious done as a capital investment.

Exoristos
In other words, businesses need to explain to the IRS that software engineers are really, really bad at engineering.
dboreham
Thanks for posting this clear explanation. Every time this comes up it's frustrating to see commenters assume that it's certainly intended to be way #2.
PaulDavisThe1st OP
* IF YOU READ THE ABOVE, PLEASE READ THIS TOO *

Another commenter alterted me to this guidance document from the IRS:

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-23-63.pdf

This makes it absolutely clear that "Way #2" is the IRS interpretation of the law after the TCJA passed. That is, any software-development related expenditures MUST be treated as capital expenditure and be amortized over 5 years (or 15 for foreign based work). The document explicitly states that such expenditures CANNOT be treated as ordinary expenses under Section 162 (the section that would normally allow for business expense deductions).

Having read the whole document (which I should have done before), it is absolutely clear that this is totally batshit crazy.

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