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Considering that the top 1% of taxpayers pay more in income taxes than the bottom 90% combined I would say the rich are already taxed.

> Considering that the top 1% of taxpayers pay more in income taxes than the bottom 90% combined I would say the rich are already taxed.

There are multiple errors of omission in the above statement, I won't address all of them, but the easiest to understand (but unfortunately the least informative) is this:

Individual income taxes provide only 49% of all tax revenue, so you are arguing only about a minority portion of all federal tax revenue. Another 3% come from corporate income taxes. Yeap, that's right, only 3%!

The rest come almost exclusively from Social Security and Medicare taxes and there, the top 1% provide about 1% because their contributions are capped at a very low level.

That omission alone makes your statement look like an attempt to deceive by hiding half of the real numbers.

Medicare tax is uncapped as of several years ago, I thought?

I don't think you can uncap social security without either blowing up the useful fiction that it is (mostly) mandatory old age insurance or uncapping the benefits. Maybe that fiction is going to expire soon anyway.

> Medicare tax is uncapped as of several years ago, I thought?

Yes, it is, but it's taxed far too low relative to its spending given the current healthcare cost structure. As a result, only half of the Medicare costs are funded by the Medicare Trust Fund, the other half is deficit funded.

In other words, unlike the Social Security tax, Medicare isn't self-funding from the Medicare tax because it's set artificially low (or healthcare costs are too high, if you prefer).

> Another 3% come from corporate income taxes. Yeap, that's right, only 3%!

The corporate income tax rate could be zero for all I care; the money's taxed when it gets transferred to the actual people that own the corporation, anyway.

> The rest come almost exclusively from Social Security and Medicare taxes and there, the top 1% provide about 1% because their contributions are capped at a very low level.

You presuppose that it's an unalloyed good to tax someone more if they make more money. Why?

So for social security - Actually it’s not “the 1% are capped at 1% of their income” but rather capped at the same number, not percentage, as everyone else - which is around 180k per year. That was the argument being made.
> The corporate income tax rate could be zero for all I care; the money's taxed when it gets transferred to the actual people that own the corporation, anyway.

As far as I know there are quite a few loopholes to be exploited which don't trigger a taxable event, loans using assets as collateral is one of them but there are a bunch of other nice holes that creative and well paid accountants/lawyers find if you have enough money for their services.

> The corporate income tax rate could be zero for all I care

It could, but it shouldn't unless your goal is stagnation with a lower standard of living under the control of cartels and oligarchs - this is a consequence of the regulatory fundamentals that have been in place for quite some time.

You'd be amazed how much fiscal policy can fix, even in the current messy state of other regulations.

> You presuppose that it's an unalloyed good to tax someone more if they make more money. Why?

Not always and not at any level, it depends, the devil is in the details as usual.

> It could, but it shouldn't unless your goal is stagnation with a lower standard of living under the control of cartels and oligarchs

I'm seeing no evidence that how much a nation taxes corporations affects its standard of living or political systems one way or another[0]. Norway and Cuba collect similarly high amounts (as a percentage of total tax receipts); the US rubs shoulders the likes of Spain, France, and Finland, as well as Cabo Verde and Tunisia in its relatively low collections.

[0]: https://www.oecd.org/en/publications/corporate-tax-statistic...

re: " the money's taxed when it gets transferred to the actual people that own the corporation, anyway" - not as much as you make it out to be. Large US corporations keep a pile of their profits outside the US. In theory this money would be taxed when it would be re-patriated to their US-based investors. In practice the corporations wait for the next Republican president to pass a tax holiday during which money transferred from outside the US to the US-investors is not taxed. GWB did that, Trump did that in his first term too.
Their contributions are capped because their benefits are capped.
You can make the same argument about the income tax and similarly limit the taxable income from it which will lead to the tax revenue being cut approximately in half.

Also, after Congress raided the Social Security account, they made the point that Social Security is just another tax subject to spending in the general budget.

If that's the case, there are as many arguments for capping/uncapping the FICA taxes as for all other taxes. The problem with such arguments is their appeal to a notion of fairness which has as many faces as economics theories out there - basically a dead end - courtesy of our not-so-diligent economics "science".

So, it's better to use the achievement of better economic, political and social results as the only guidance for fiscal policy, although that requires a level of analysis which far exceeds what mainstream economics has to offer.

Could you please expand on this: "after Congress raided the Social Security account..."? What do you mean by that? AFAIK, Social Security contributions stay within the Social Security Fund - they cannot be used by US government to pay its bills.
> Could you please expand on this: "after Congress raided the Social Security account..."?

I'd ask you, and others reading my previous comment, to scratch this off as a bad choice of words on my part and replace it with:

"by moving to a pay-as-you-go policy for the SSTF, Congress made the point that Social Security is just another tax."

Previously I used "raiding" as a far-fetched metaphor for several different processes which are too complex to discuss here and it would distract from the main point: instead of complex itemization, SSFT & MCFT would be better off as parts of general taxation.

> AFAIK, Social Security contributions stay within the Social Security Fund - they cannot be used by US government to pay its bills.

True in theory, but if we look at how surpluses are handled and how they depend on a manually controlled interest rate we'll see a different reality.

The amount of money they leech from society is uncapped
They need to pay more if the US wants to avoid becoming an aristocracy. The top 1%’s share of income is growing rapidly, while the bottom 90%’s share is shrinking.

https://www.epi.org/blog/wages-for-the-top-1-skyrocketed-160...

Taking that as true, that doesn't address the actual problem. The US tax code has so many loopholes and specific rules that only ever apply to a handful of people that we might as well be talking about two different sets of laws.

Even calling them "the 1%" is not particularly helpful, because 1% of America is still, like, three and a half million people. These are small business owners and the like; the kinds of people who are well off but still actually doing real productive work. Like, of course they pay the most taxes.

Once you start getting into the 1% of the 1% - "the 0.01%" - then you can afford to hire an accountant who can engineer you a favorable tax situation. And so your tax share starts falling.

But at the level of the 1% of the 0.01% - "the 0.0001%" - you can get custom-designed tax loopholes to favor you and you alone. Because at this level, you're talking about around 348 Americans, all with astronomically high wealth, paying almost no taxes. At this level, the amount of material wealth doesn't even matter; it's all bound up in hypotheticals and illiquid assets. Some of them might be CEOs, or interlocking directors, or politicians. But their real value is all in social capital - their connectedness to other 0.0001%ers who collectively own the economy and can move mountains in their favor.

Lets conceed that what you're saying is true (I didn't check but don't find it unebelievable).

"Percentage of taxes are paid by the top %1" is just one metric, but there's no reason why we should consider it the only criterion.

I would argue that in our world what you said might be true, and at the same time the bottom 90% lives their day to day with the threat that if they disobey their employer, their lives might quickly fall apart, and I would further argue that the latter is more telling about fairness in our society, than "top 1% pays more than bottom 90%"

Alternative framing: If you have to earn money and pay income tax, you are not really rich.
Well let it be known that just because a framing is "alternative" does not mean it is insightful, interesting, or true.
aka 'People pay taxes in proportion to the money they have, not in proportion to the amount of population they make up'

Do do 'percentage of total wealth paid in taxes annually' for the bottom and the top groups.

> Do do 'percentage of total wealth paid in taxes annually' for the bottom and the top groups.

But that's unfair because the bottom group barely has any wealth so the numbers will be skewed!

Wait a second..

They are taxes, but they’re paying pennies on the dollar. While the rest of us are paying quarters for every dollar earned.
By golly, I do wonder why the labor class are the ones paying the taxes on their labor compared to the capital owner class! Riveting stuff.
Isn't that only because the wages of the bottom 90% have stagnated so long?
It is a lie (or decades out of date) that wages have stagnated. Wages were stagnant from ~1979 to 1997. They have increased a lot since then.

Median usual weekly real earnings: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LES1252881600Q

No for the income tax, when the income tax was introduced in 1913 it was explicitly designed to apply mostly to the rich (off the cuff, I think only a few percent of people paid it for quite some time).

The working poor though earn most their money through wages, which get taxed at the bare minimum 12.4% (payroll + post-payroll SS taxes), and then usually 7-10% sales tax because they are spending all they earn. So the poor are paying 20% tax right off the bat, meanwhile the rich are paying ~20% on capital gains but spending very little of that on sales tax and none on social security. So about the same overall tax rate paid on the earnings of the working poor as the rich.

Social security has always been the main monkey on the back of the working class, to the point the government will literally tax a childless person back into poverty to make sure the quasi-pyramid* scheme is funded. I don't think SS payments are normally recorded in the income tax statistics.

* but technically not

“Tax The Rich At The Same Rate Or Greater Than The Average Rate The Middle Class Are Taxed With” makes for a bad headline, no matter how much clarity it brings to the issue. It’s expected that the top 1% pay the top 99% of taxes in total dollars; that’s how a tax is supposed to work! All that’s needed is to address the unfairness in tax rate; 50% is the tax rate for $250k/year salary, so surely it’s fine to charge a billionaire the same 50% rate on their full earnings (without the ‘unsold gains’ loopholes, offshore holdings, and self-serving trusts exemptions).

I’d rather Romney hadn’t been driven by spite to chime correctly at 12 straight up on the stopped clock, but +1 advocate is still better than +0.

Now do the payroll tax.
And the extremely regressive consumption taxes.
The payroll tax is effectively a flat tax; you can peruse the taxes paid vs. earnings at the SSA website[0].

[0]: https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/projections/tables/taxpayers...

It is worse than that. I pay a lower percentage of my income in payroll taxes than my wife, despite earning 8x what she earns.
Right, but you won't receive 8x the benefits that your payroll taxes will eventually pay for, either. In fact, your wife will probably receive a higher percentage of her FICA contributions in eventual SS benefits than you, because there's a slight element of redistribution built in; it's not a straightforward "you get back what you paid into".

For me, the much more concerning part of Social Security is the demographic challenge: the program started out with over 10 workers per retiree and is down to less than three[0]. It doesn't matter how you play with the sliding scales of who pays how much and what the earnings cap is, when in the end it's two to three working people's wages being taxed to support one retiree.

[0]: https://www.ssa.gov/history/ratios.html

That's okay. I also won't receive as much benefits from my income taxes as my aunt who has a serious brain injury and can't take care of herself. I don't exactly need the money.
Do you have a source for that wild assertion?
this is wrong logic. what if 90-99 % are paying 95% of actual taxes?
Nonsense. The amount of wealth hoarded by the top 0.1%, 1%, and 10% has vastly expanded in the past decades, while the percent of all income and wealth held by workers has been gutted.

That alone shows the top earners are not being taxed enough.

If they were losing wealth and portion of income, you might have an argument. But they are not and you do not.

The top 1% earn 22.4% of ALL income (AGI). [0]

The top 1% held 30.8% of all US wealth in 2024. That amount has grown from 22.8% in 1989.[1]

>> the top 0.1% of households in terms of wealth held 8.5% of the nation's wealth in Q3 1989. By Q2 2025, that had risen to 13.9% For the rest of the top 1%, the percentages rose from 14.3% to 17.1% over the same period. So the wealthiest top 1% now holds more than 30% of all wealth. Those gains came at the expense of the less-wealthy household categories, all of which lost ground on a percentage basis. The bottom 50%, for example, saw their share fall from an already low 3.5% down to 2.5%. [0]

NONE of this is because workers have somehow become worse

ALL of it is because those at the top have become more greedy, and have been enabled by craven politicians of a particular party who support that.

[0] https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/federal/latest-federal-in...

[1] https://www.visualcapitalist.com/visualized-the-1s-share-of-...

[2] https://www.cnbc.com/2025/07/30/income-to-be-in-top-1-percen...

> Nonsense. The amount of wealth hoarded by the top 0.1%, 1%, and 10% has vastly expanded in the past decades, while the percent of all income and wealth held by workers has been gutted.

> That alone shows the top earners are not being taxed enough.

Is your reasoning that the amount of household wealth and income at each percentile should hold roughly constant over the years, as if this is some law of physics?

Law of physics? No. The reasoning is that if the top percentile is rising instead of staying relatively constant, wealth inequality is getting worse.
>>as if this is some law of physics?

Seriously? Way to miss the point by miles

The point is: the absolute values are bad the direction and magnitude of change indicates it is getting worse.

The distribution of wealth is already vastly suboptimal, heavily skewed to the most greedy 0.1%-5%.

When the most wealthy society in the history of the planet still has large portions of its population living one missed paycheck or one illness/accident away from being destitute, or being already destitute, while a few at the top have orders of magnitude more wealth than they can spend in a lifetime, something is deeply wrong.

The change numbers show this already the case nearly four decades ago, it has gotten worse.

So yes, the glib argument that "the 1% already pay 90% of federal taxes..." is just as spurious as it is vacuous.

Not only does it ignore the reality of wealth and income distribution that the taxation is far below the misallocation, it also ignores the fact that Federal Income Taxes are only a small portion of our total tax burden, and the poor and middle classes pay vastly more of the other taxes such as sales tax, gasoline and road taxes, fees, etc. IOW, you are cherry-picking, and badly.

> The distribution of wealth is already vastly suboptimal, heavily skewed to the most greedy 0.1%-5%.

> the reality of wealth and income distribution that the taxation is far below the misallocation

How do you or anyone else know what's optimal and what's misallocated?

> it also ignores the fact that Federal Income Taxes are only a small portion of our total tax burden

Income tax is roughly half of federal receipts and is the single largest source, with payroll taxes the next largest at about a third.

>>How do you or anyone else know what's optimal and what's misallocated?

Start with basic empathy and a simple sense of fairness.

No one here is saying everything should be even close to equal, and I certainly am not. But as many philosophers have pointed out through the ages, you can see how ethical a society is by how it treats its lowest members.

Seriously. Anyone who fails to see something is deeply wrong, when the most wealthy society in the history of the planet has half of it's people barely scraping by, while a tiny elite hoard orders of magnitude more wealth than they can spend in a lifetime, is morally blind.

So start there. When the system is producing this well-documented result, the wealthy are most definitely not paying enough taxes to support the society that enabled them to earn their wealth.

>>Income tax is roughly ...

Yes, and you are appearing to be deliberately obtuse by focusing only on specific federal taxes and ignoring the TOTAL tax burden which is what counts when measuring which people are supporting society and which are extracting more than a fair share. And ignoring the proportion of income and wealth that sector takes vs what they pay in taxes.

When hedge fund managers bringing in $billions and Warren Buffet pay lower rates than their secretaries, something is deeply wrong.

Again, a simple sense or empathy, ethics, and fairness can be your guide. These are evidently foreign concepts to you, and I recommend you look into them.

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