We use perhaps 5% battery of our VW ID.3 on a typical day (school run, shops, visiting friends or whatever) so we just do an over-night top-up back to 80% maybe once a week when we get down to ~50%. Working surprisingly well - I am not sure I can be bothered to get the proper charger installed (which is annoying as I have already bought it and the cable for about £800 and its just sitting in my shed!)
Of course if you're commuting 2 hours every day, things will be different. But for us, it's been great.
Assuming a 120V / 20A = 2400W circuit (more or less standard in a garage):
100 parking spots = 200A / 24000W; 300 parking spots = 600A / 72000W.
So a distribution line can carry 72kW readily enough — that seems to be about where they are anyways — but if it's carrying that load, it cannot carry any other load, which means that each high-capacity parking garage will need a dedicated line from the nearest substation is.
Then, that parking garage will need to distribute that current to 300 parking spot chargers. Even at 120V/20A, that's 300 new circuit taps; 300 wires, initially. You can use three-phase to reduce that to 100 wires @ 120/20A or equivalent each, which is a lot. Or you can reduce that to 3 wires @ 120V/200A or equivalent, at which point you now have the safety considerations of an outdoor distribution wire in a small enclosed fire-prone space, and you're facing the christmas light problem of "one blown bulb" versus one third of your garage.
Then you need to confront "the chargers need to support burst-mode" so that people can push a button to get a temporary fast-charge ignoring all other concerns — but also "the chargers need to default to trickle-mode", while also considering that trickle-mode should run faster when fewer cars are plugged in (or else tenants will take offense that the chargers aren't using provisioned and available capacity), and that Time-of-Day concerns should cap trickle-mode during peak so that the grid doesn't fail. And that electric vehicles are foreseen as a component of localized grid storage, so garages might need to support backfeeding from cars.
And this all has to be coordinated across three hundred chargers and who knows how many feeder circuits, between one three-phase and three-hundred one-phase, assuming that 72kW (120V/600A) is provisioned to trickle-charge the entire garage each evening at 15A per car max (have to leave some headroom for the burst needs, for momentary overdraw before a charger fuses out a defective vehicle, etc).
This is all doable, but it is logistically expensive, and I would estimate that cost at perhaps tens of millions of dollars at that scale. Doing this for my old 12-apartment complex would merely require 2.4kW of new power delivery, taps, and distribution under the pavement (there's no room for overhead poles to be introduced), without sinking the property into the riverbed it's built on, and without breaking the local emergency services grid that it's drawing from when the creek next door floods every few years.
Retrofit costs are estimated at $5000-$15000 per single parking spot (new buildings are wired more efficiently so halve that cost for anything built since the Model S came out). California at one point was offering a 30% subsidy on retrofits; so, for my example, 300 spots * $5000-$15000 = ~2-4 million dollars (napkin rounded) for a single apartment complex. At local 1-bedroom housing prices, that's around 1000 rent-months of capital investment with no future gain — and that's the most critical part here. The complex cannot recoup that investment through maintenance and usage fees, because those will have to be paid out in actual maintenance and kilowatt-hours — and tenants, in this economy, cannot afford to subsidize the buildout cost.
So until retrofits are either state-funded or state-mandated, landlords have little to no reason to invest their money into the future of electric cars, because they'll get pennies on the dollar at best from their investment. And, given their tendency to collude via RealPage, no one will be the first to build out a 100% EV charging garage because that will not only long-term devalue their other properties without increasing the short-term value of the one improved, but also will start a race to the bottom that they are already colluding to try and prevent.
Yes, trickle-charging is electrically feasible — it's compelling the profitless capital investment that is not.
Landlords can charge tenants over the price of electricity.
> What city has charging available for an average of greater than one spot per five hundred multifamily-housing residents?
Shanghai: https://english.shanghai.gov.cn/en-Latest-WhatsNew/20240508/...
Napkin math time. Assuming that Shanghai has ~1% of China's 420 million vehicles, given that Shanghai has ~2% of China's population (~8 million) and assuming a car ownership rate of 0.5; then Shanghai can be estimated to have 4 million vehicles, while only having 0.8 million charging locations (as the article indicates). 20% certainly does exceed 0.2%, and they're ahead of the game with ~2 charging locations per EV today — but that also means that they've only converted ~10% of Shanghai's gasoline vehicle population and are only provisioned to support 20% conversion right now.
However, I think that China has a significant advantage versus the U.S. — they are primarily selling very small vehicles for intra-city use. So, their charger capacities can be significantly lower per vehicle than in the U.S., which reduces their difficulty of electric conversations probably by a full order of magnitude from ours.
This does not match what I’ve seen in China at all. Nor does it match up with any data I’ve seen about the best selling cars in China. Do you have any data on this?
This doesn't really matter that much. The average car commute in the US is less than 40 miles per day. Even if we assume that everyone gets a fairly giant Model X, that's still around 12kWh of energy per day.
You can get that much power from a regular 120V wall plug within 8 hours.
There are smaller and more practical changes that would have huge benefits. More public transport, pedestrianised areas, encouraging people to drive smaller cars (lots of ways to do that - e.g. reserve some parking for small cars, tax vehicles on weight) would all have huge benefits.
Other countries have figured this out. Norway in particular. Working transportation models exist and this country has the funds to make it happen. However because of American Exceptionalism, we have very limited options.
Yet every single morning and evening there is huge traffic jam around every city. Every single year highways are more full, more issue with parking.
If it can't be solved in such ideal country for public transport, I am not holding breath for rest of the world, and just wishing something ain't gonna make it real. There are many reasons why situation is as it is (it costs a lot, even such transport doesn't cover many people's cases well enough and nobody wants to spend 120 mins every day commuting via public transport when its say 60 with cars).
What I can imagine actually working - uber style shared robo (meaning cheap) taxis/minibuses. Big enough network that one can even switch a car in some 'taxi station' for more efficient trip that would take just marginally longer than driving oneself. This solves a lot of parking issues in cities and would reduce traffic to maybe half or a bit less.
Banning gasoline vehicles is the goal. In the U.S., all known solutions require capital investments that corporations can't extract a 'growth in profit growth over time' from, while disadvantaging the vehicle owners caste. Solve that, and you'll solve a lot more than just gasoline vehicles.
We have scaled it! We're a country of 330 million people where almost everyone drives.
> However because of American Exceptionalism, we have very limited options.
It's only "American Exceptionalism" insofar as Americans are rich compared to Europeans. Upper middle class people across Europe also live in suburbs and drive to places. American wealth/land space simply enables middle and lower middle class people to do the same thing.
said the man, 37 trillion dollars in debt. Go team!
Annoyingly, I've already invested in a 11kW charger (with 22kW infrastructure) which I've never used!
You don't need "magical DC-charging" to go EV.
[1] My wife, being from the west coast, used to walk around NYC in flip flops, and would come home with her feet black from brake dust and soot and god knows what else.
Typical car density for my nearest three grocery stores is 25-100 vehicles fluctuating during three or four peak hours. The highest number of chargers at any of those stores is 8, followed by 2 and 0; of those, 8 have been out of service for the past 60 days because someone is playing negotiation hardball with the charging services provider.
When the chargers were working, they were nearly at capacity for the entire day, at current (low) levels of electric car fraction of the population; there's no way they're prepared to cope with a full conversion, at which point the same power density and distribution problem that impacts multifamily parking garages instead (or as well!) affects grocery stores.
I would love to switch to electric but at current charging times and absolutely horrendously incompetent grid deployments, there’s no way all of the thousand people in my building could, much less the million other renters in the city. (And certainly transit can’t cope with us either, given the continued homeowner hostility to paying taxes for such things.)
What city has charging available for an average of greater than one spot per five hundred multifamily-housing residents? What parking garages anywhere in the U.S. have 25 or more electric vehicle chargers per 100 daytime and/or overnight and/or reserved parking spots, in order to diffuse the grid cost through trickle charging? What funding model is proposed to ensure that’s built whether corporate garage owners like it or not? How will states who depend on fuel tax to keep roads in repair avoid cutting off city services to suburban outregions when their asphalt budgets crater?
Technology has downstream effects, and it’s not as simple as “buy a Prius” when you consider U.S. non-homeowners. (I assume the prospect for India electric conversions would be much worse, too.) “Ban combustion vehicles” is a lofty goal, but until the charging grid problem is solved, it’s an unattainable one.