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freejazz parent
>So because the lawsuit pertains to copyright, we can ignore possible constitutional issues because it'll make things take longer?

What constitutional issues do you believe are present?

> There is no requirement for a lawyer to be utilized.

Corporations must be represented by an attorney, by law. So that's not true outright. Second, if someone did file something pro-se, they might get a little leeway. But the business isn't represented pro-se, so why on earth would the judge apply a lower standard appropriate for a pro-se party so a sophisticated law firm, easily one of the largest and best in the country?

When you are struggling to reason around really straightforward issues like that, it does not leave me with confidence about your other judgments regarding the issues present here.


gopher_space
I read the ruling(judgment?) first and the fine article second. If I'd just read the article I'd be more confused than this guy.

The PDF is easy to read and really lucid once you get past the formatting. Ars should have just converted it to markdown.

freejazz OP
Tech coverage of legal stuff is terrible. Ars has zero interest in representing this story in a fair way. They are making controversy for page views.
paulddraper
> What constitutional issues do you believe are present?

4th Amendment (Search and Seizure)

kopecs
Do you think the 4th amendment enjoins courts from requiring the preservation of records as part of discovery? The court is just requiring OpenAI to maintain records it already maintains and segregate them. Even if one thinks that _is_ a government seizure, which it isn't---See Burdeau v. McDowell, 256 U.S. 465 (1921); cf. Walter v. United States, 447 U.S. 649, 656 (1980) (discussing the "state agency" requirement)---no search or seizure has even occurred. There's no reasonable expectation of privacy in the records you're sending to OpenAI (you know OpenAI has them!!; See, e.g., Smith v. Maryland, 442 U.S. 735 (1979)) and you don't have any possessory interest in the records. See, e.g., United States v. Jacobsen, 466 U.S. 109 (1984).
This would help explain why entities with a “zero data retention” agreement are “not affected,” then, per OpenAI’s statement at the time? Because records aren’t created for those queries in the first place, so there’s nothing to retain?
kopecs
AIUI Because if you have a zero data retention agreement you are necessarily not in the class of records at issue (since enterprise customers records are not affected, again AIUI per platinffs' original motion which might be because they don't think they're relevant for market harm or something).

So I think that this is more so an artefact of the parameters than an outcome of some mechanism of law.

paulddraper
> There's no reasonable expectation of privacy in the records

There is a reasonable expectation that deleted and anonymous chats would not be indefinitely retained.

> The court is just requiring OpenAI to maintain records it already maintains and segregate them.

Incorrect. The court is requiring OpenAI to maintain records it would have not maintained otherwise.

That is the crux of this entire thing.

kelnos
> The court is requiring OpenAI to maintain records it would have not maintained otherwise.

Not quite. The court is requiring OpenAPI to maintain records longer than it would otherwise retain them. It's not making them maintain records that they never would have created in the first place (like if a customer of theirs has a zero-retention agreement in place).

Legal holds are a thing; you're not going to successfully argue against them on 4A grounds. This might seem like an overly broad legal hold, though, but I'm not sure if there are any rules that prevent that sort of thing.

paulddraper
> This might seem like an overly broad legal hold

Exactly

tptacek
Litigation holds do not violate the 4th amendment.
DannyBee
How?

the government is not involved at all in this dispute, neither state or federal.

mindslight
So the parties are just like duking it out in a parking lot or something? If the government is not involved, then why does OpenAI even bother listening to the judge?
freejazz OP
This only demonstrates that you do not understand the difference between the executive and judicial branches. It does not demonstrate a good point.
mindslight
How so? The comment I was responding to made no such distinction - it merely claimed "the government is not involved". In the US, "government" is generally taken to be anybody acting under the banner of nation/state authority (contrast with say the UK). So the government is most certainly involved here - adjudicating the case and issuing this retention order.

(for example, your own comment: the executive and judicial branches [of government])

freejazz OP
It's a civil case and the gov't is not involved so...
strictnein
> When you are struggling to reason around really straightforward issues like that, it does not leave me with confidence about your other judgments regarding the issues present here.

Or, perhaps, that's not something known by most. I didn't struggle to understand that, I simply didn't know it. Also, again, the article could have mentioned that, and I started my statement by saying maybe the article was doing a bad job conveying things.

> What constitutional issues do you believe are present?

This method of interrogation of online comments is always interesting to me. Because you seem to want to move the discussion to that of whether or not the issues are valid, which wasn't what I clearly was discussing. When you are struggling to reason around really straightforward issues like that, it does not leave me with confidence about your other judgments regarding the issues present here.

Aeolun
Now that you’ve both done it, can we stop with the ad hominem?
freejazz OP
Method of interrogation? I'm not a mind reader. If you don't want to make yourself clear, that's fine. If you want to be petty, that's fine as well.

>Or, perhaps, that's not something known by most. I didn't struggle to understand that, I simply didn't know it.

Sorry you struggled to not understand your own concept that you put forward that because a lawyer isn't required (not true, but granting you this for the sake of this conversation), we shouldn't hold lawyers up to the standard of a lawyer anyway? That's facially silly.

strictnein
> If you don't want to make yourself clear, that's fine. If you want to be petty, that's fine as well.

I literally just repeated to you what you said to me. But, yeah, I'm the petty one.

> Sorry you struggled to not understand your own concept that you put forward that because a lawyer isn't required

What? Why are you misinterpreting everything I wrote?

> we shouldn't hold lawyers up to the standard of a lawyer anyway? That's facially silly.

Where in the world did I say this?

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