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The highs and lows of SpaceX have been interesting to watch. I have to wonder though if, at least partially, some of their recent troubles are partially because people are loosing passion for their mission. You can definitely see it in the reporting, and some of the comments here, that there is less willingness to give them the benefit of the doubt and while that is far from a technical measure, passion is a big part of what makes a team get through things and continue to make progress. I know for my own part there was a time where I was looking for positions at SpaceX purely because I wanted to be apart of what was going on but now you couldn't pay be enough to join them. If your key people start thinking of things as just a job instead of a world changing opportunity then your rapid iteration cycle can go from 'this is brilliant and gets things done fast so I better try harder' to 'this is stupid and I am putting in my minimum hours to get paid'.

csours
> because people are losing passion for their mission.

Or perhaps they are losing people with the passion for the mission.

MegaDeKay
I think more likely is that the bones of the people working there are being ground to dust as Musk demands more and more from them faster and faster. You can only do so much so fast before things start going south hard.
ethbr1
It's amazing how underappreciated or cared about morale is in the corporate world.

"How happy are people at this company?" is a non-negligible performance differentiator.

Yet somehow CEOs seem blindsided when everyone at a company hates it and is mailing it in. (Probably because they're only listening to the management chain, which is concealing the problem)

aeternum
Is this actually true?

Amazon was pretty notorious for poor culture and high employee turnover yet the company performance has been stellar. Covid-era twitter clearly cared a ton about employee morale but the product stagnated.

I find it's often the opposite causality, IE the success/trajectory of the company is the primary component that determines morale. An increasing stock price makes employees happy.

Amazon's stock price is great, sure. But I don't think their products are particularly inspired. There's a huge disconnect between how good a product is and how much money it prints. On the far end of the spectrum you have products like Oracle, SAP, IBM, etc which, despite being objectively shit, still somehow print. And then on the other side you have truly inspired stuff that is built by people who care, like (early) SpaceX, Anthropic, (early) Apple, etc. It's kind of hard (imo) to not see the difference between these two ends of the spectrum.

I think that product quality and money printing ability do eventually converge, but it can take decades to get there. The slow trickle of talent leaving the company causes the product decay over time, but there's a ton of inertia in the meantime.

TheOtherHobbes
Perhaps it would have been even more stellar with happier people.

There is a very bizarre and persistent belief that you can't be successful without grinding, being miserable, and abusing both employees and customers.

What if that's not true?

it's obvious to anyone watching Amazon from birth until now that an underlying theme for the way their business is ran is by conjuring profitability by taking advantage -- they're good at that.

To me, the belief that Amazon would stand a chance at being as big as they are without taking advantage of people/culture/society is bizarre.

To be frank : if it were true we'd see more competition from groups that don't grind their assets to dust.. and we don't. Amazon is at the top of the game, and they grind things into dust while lobbying for further ability to do so in the future.

In other words : how many more precedents need to be set before we can tell beyond a reasonable doubt that full-bore-capitalism leads to disempowerment of the individual at the behest of corporations, and that it's rigged to do exactly that?

marcusverus
I would never want to work for an Elon, but I understand the allure. Like most of us, I'm giving a solid ~75% effort most days, just punching the clock. My work life balances is fine. I have time for my family and hobbies, etc. It's a nice, steady way to live. But every once in awhile, circumstances will conspire to provide me with hard work with an aggressive, drop-dead delivery date. It makes me mad at first--there are things I'd rather do than work, after all--but there is something to be said for letting go and locking the fuck in for a week of 14 hour a days. It feels good. It doesn't feel like work. It's a drug. It keeps me high until midnight, but makes me sleep like a rock. It makes me sleep like a rock, but has me springing out of bed 5 hours later! I feel like I'm the master of the universe. I'm impervious to stress. Even that's not quite right. It's not just that I'm immune to stress, it's that I start to feed off of it. I welcome it.

And then d-day comes and it's over. The impetus is gone. And every single time, I try to hang on to it. I give myself new projects and fake deadlines. I force myself to get up early and stay up late, but the moment that magic is gone, those things become... work. And like I said, there are things I would rather do than work.

I think a lot of Elon's success stems from his mastery of this "lock in" phenomenon. He is (or at least was) able to induce it in himself to drive himself harder than normal people do. He is able to induce the same state in his workforce as by setting bold and inspiring goals and setting absurd deadlines.

This is not a secret, btw. Nobody goes to SpaceX without understanding that they're signing up to work double the hours for way less than double the pay. For many, this sounds like a nightmare. If you're a young single guy looking to lock the fuck in, to take on huge responsibilities and grow in the company of some of the smartest, hardest working people on earth, it sounds positively amazing.

tl;dr: It's a feature, not a bug.

ethbr1
The missing component in the above is making sure that one is compensated for giving their all.

Because there's a lot of things that are given up when doing that.

And ultimately, no leader is responsible for ensuring someone's compensation matches their effort. That's on everyone's own shoulders to demand.

bradstewart
Thank you for this. Fantastic articulation of a thing I've experienced a few times.

Interestingly (or maybe not?), the things that rise to this level have a much higher activation threshold the older I get.

quantified
An increasing stock price makes employees with stock happy.

Generally, morale is a variable but the coefficient to apply to it is also different from company to company.

rich_sasha
I think they're also doing things that are very, very hard, but they set the expectations very, very high.

Hard things fail from time to time. When you aim for something really at the edge of human enginuity, it might work or it might not, and if it works, it will probably still be a close call.

But somehow years ago already SpaceX and it's followers convinced everyone that Starship will definitely happen. And it still might, but if it does, I still think it will be a rocky road.

I would say SpaceX has been extraordinarily lucky for years (not in the sense that they fluked it, but rather that they achieved so much and made it look easy), and this is just reversion to the mean.

GolfPopper
Not just hard things, but much harder than they've done before.

Note that Booster appears to be coming along pretty well. But Ship, which has a much, much more difficult mission profile than Falcon 9, is really struggling, because going to orbit and back is far more difficult than going most of the way to orbit and back. (Please forgive the abstraction - I don't have the relative numbers at hand.)

apples_oranges
There are still people who have basic professionalism and desire to improve their skills, regardless of the vision they buy into or don't buy into. Motivation only goes so far, and in my humble opinion, unless Space X hiring was special in some way, the people who build space rockets are not the kind of people who underperform because they no longer buy the story. They just quit and excel elsewhere.
vjvjvjvjghv
I could imagine that Musk's political escapades have driven away a lot of people.

SpaceX may also have lost Musk as the referee who makes quick decisions and keeps things moving forward. I think people like Thorvalds, Gates, Jobs and Musk are a superpower for organizations. Their decisions may not always be perfect but at least a decision is made so people can proceed. Otherwise you end up with the usual committee decisions that take forever and are mostly driven by internal politics and not about the product.

more_corn
Not just that but he aggressively fires people for little or nothing, spontaneously rescinds outstanding offers, fires contractors, initiates hiring freezes, cancels bonuses and throws up Nazi salutes on national television.

So I’ve heard working for him can present challenges.

numpad0
I guess the moral of the story is, dice rolls can be surprisingly useful, but when the dice stops being a dice and becomes its own reactionary camp inside the committee, the optics can get surprisingly di...

No, I'll show myself out.

lukeschlather
That isn't an instant process. Someone who has been working at SpaceX for 5 years and is excited about Starship might have reached a tipping point where they can no longer ignore their boss's behavior, but also they are conflicted about abandoning Starship.
fisherjeff
Well, equity vesting can be one reason to stick around and underperform
jordanb
Yeah I'm sure they could walk out the door and get a job at the other rocket company across the street.
hiddencost
This is what happened to Google.
mempko
I don't know, but if I saw my boss do a Nazi Salute, I would definitely lose passion.
Indeed, though rocket engineers have historically not been particular sticklers on that score.
LarsDu88
Von Braun went from burning through Jewish slave labor to build super weapons to Hitler to hosting TV specials on space travel with Walt Disney in Orlando Florida. Are we going to see the reverse progression with Elon?
CamperBob2
Von Braun was just a geek who passionately wanted to work on rockets. He didn't worry much about what payloads they would carry or whom they would land on, just as people working at Meta or Palantir don't sweat those sorts of details. He wasn't so much immoral as amoral.

As it happened, the only people willing to pay von Braun to build rockets were Nazis, so (shrug) Nazis it was. If the Americans had recruited him in the 1930s, he would have become a loyal American and a credit to his adopted country, just as he ended up doing after the war. If Stalin had been willing to sponsor him, well, he'd have raised the red banner and become a loyal Communist.

There was never any point in prosecuting von Braun as a Nazi, or even thinking of him as one. Treating him as a war criminal, even though he technically was one, would have been a pointless, performative waste of badly-needed talent, like destroying captured V2s instead of studying them.

Elon Musk? He has no such excuse. Musk can be anything, do anything, say anything. He came to America early and made his fortune doing things that a lot of us respected and even envied him for. Then he chose to attach his name to far-right causes, throw Nazi salutes, and do the Kraft durch Freude dance at Trump rallies. Turned out Musk didn't care about building rockets or going to Mars quite so much as he cared about being an immature asshole. In that sense he took a path diametrically opposite that of Wernher von Braun.

So, yeah, if I worked for SpaceX, I wouldn't exactly bust my ass to make the leader's vision happen after losing trust in the integrity of said leader. I'd simply leave and find employment elsewhere, leaving behind people with fewer options.

ethbr1
Ref: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QEJ9HrZq7Ro&t=17s

Turns out skillset usually trumps justice, as long as you're willing to make the right post-hoc mea culpas.

csours
Yup. I have not experienced anything nearly this serious with a CEO, but I have had company leadership say and do very stupid things that reduced my focus on the corporate mission. Fortunately, they do still occasionally provide me with interesting puzzles (and they still pay me).
have-a-break
Problem is with the numbers 36. Everytime i see those related to cars or "random passwords" I know somethings going to happen.

As a developer I'll manually change those numbers if and when they appear.

shthed
I used to be a huge elon fan, watched spacex rocket development daily, livestream all of the launches, watched many of his interviews, very impressed by tesla, selfdriving, starlink, optimus, neuralink.. he came off as a very skilled engineer.

however..

when he started spamming political misinformation on twitter i had to block him. very concerned he was burnt out and brainwashed into into politics. the nazi salute, then making nazi jokes about it, was just insane.

doge is a joke, he lost the plot.

now i barely check updates on whats happening at starbase, cheer on when the rockets explode, couldn't care less about tesla.. it's a real shame. all that great work by thousands of talented people in his companies..

he needs to resign from everything and go hide under a rock for a few years until he finally gets into orbit and burns up on rentry.

TheOtherHobbes
DOGE is not a joke. DOGE is the modern equivalent of an enclosure act - privatisation of state data for private profit and political leverage, some of which will be wielded by hostile countries.

And Musk was personally responsible - not just for that atrocity, but for poisoning the world's leading progressive social media site, for being complicit in the neutering of countless world-leading science projects, for defunding basic research at NASA and firing hundreds of employees with solid achievements and genuine passion for space science, for gutting the FAA, and so on.

I cannot say enough unkind things about the man. The fact that he has any kind of following at all after the last year is both shocking and disappointing.

haspok
> he came off as a very skilled engineer.

No, he did not. I still can't believe people bought his BS so easily - "it must be true, because he said it!" No, it isn't, never was, never will be. And I don't even care about that salute - Musk lost all his credibility around 2015 when he promised self-driving cars (coming next year! for the past 10 years, and counting), then by lying about the Solarcity roof tiles (and basically committed fraud for which he didn't go to prison - go figure).

It is also quite dehonestating to those _real_ engineers working for Tesla or Spacex, who actually know their stuff. It was them who made Musk possible, not the other way around.

> all that great work by thousands of talented people in his companies..

Exactly.

CamperBob2
If you use a combination of math, science, and available resources to create something that didn't exist before, and were paid to do it, then you are doing engineering work. Every other take on the profession is just pointless gatekeeping from the bleachers.

Engineering great organizations is still engineering (a fact that I personally wish I'd appreciated at a much younger age.)

And yes, speaking of engineering: FEM.

vjvjvjvjghv
Same happened for me. It started with the Thai cave rescue and his submarine where it showed that he is a big attention whore. From then on he seemed to lose his mind.

I still have to respect Starlink, accelerating adoption of EVs and the work SpaceX does. His businesses have reshaped several industries big time. It takes a lot of courage and insight to pull this off.

more_corn
That’s when I burned my Elon fan club card.

When he baselessly accused a hero rescue driver of a terrible crime and then refused to back down (if it’s not true sue me for defamation) then hid behind a technicality… yeah that’s the end.

That’s the behavior of a childish bully shithead not a leader. I can’t believe people still think he’s the man to lead the companies he runs.

noworriesnate
Children need heroes to look up to, I’m glad that children of right wingers can look up to him but who do children of left wingers have to look up to? Jeff Bezos is hardly inspiring.
bayarearefugee
You think Jeff "All WaPo opinion articles must focus on personal liberties and free markets" Bezos is a left-winger? lol.

You must have missed the part where he got divorced and then predictably shifted hard right.

(Being credibly accused of being a sex pest is the only thing more powerful than divorce when it comes to putting men on the right-wing-shift pipeline).

vjvjvjvjghv
Not too long ago the left wingers had Musk to look up to.
saalweachter
I mean, in general, idolizing billionaires isn't really the "left wing" thing to do.
helge9210
The pattern "I used to be [...] fan, but|however|... because of [...] I'm not anymore" is like em dash in the world of propaganda.
EdwardDiego
Or, wild idea, people change their opinions based on new information. The propagandist monsters!
helge9210
Expressing new opinion is OK. Expressing a change of opinion in the format "Before ..., but now opposite after ..." smells like propaganda.
vjvjvjvjghv
Or, more generally, if your boss's post on X make him sound like an insufferable asshole that has no self control.
ethbr1
One benefit of being quiet is that people may assume you're more competent than you are.

If you're loud, that collapses into a more realistic appraisal.

EdwardDiego
> Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.

-- Most likely not Abraham Lincoln.

pantalaimon
Si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses.
numpad0
Pathetic one while at it. He didn't start it from "attention" posture, and the jacket wasn't the kind designed for a salute(of that kind or not). Not to be a Nazi, but I bet that doing would have made even lots of them walk away.
cyberlimerence
Apollo worked out fine, so might not be much of a problem. /s
Gothmog69 (dead)
inglor_cz
An alternative explanation is that they are trying to push the design of Starship to its limits.

All the failures have happened with Starship v2, where the ambition is to put 100 tons to Low Earth Orbit. The previous design, Starship v1, was only (theoretically) capable of lifting 80 tons.

20 tons is a huge difference, basically what Falcon 9 can lift when launched in expendable mode.

LorenPechtel
But this was an explosion on the pad. Something leaked or something broke while not under flight stress.

We also have that Falcon 9 that blew in space due to a leak.

I think they're skimping on quality control.

inglor_cz
This is what I have read so far:

https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/1lfayba/em_update_o...

So yeah, a QC problem, it seems.

bluescrn
With this one, given the seething hatred for Musk these days, I wouldn't rule out sabotage.

It's not the most likely cause, but in a world where people have been torching Tesla dealerships, I'm sure there's a lot of people now who really want to see Starship fail.

FireBeyond
I think you're drawing a VERY long bow here. That's a long hustle, to work in a field where you'd get to be an intimate part of the launch control process at a company that is going to be very selective on who it hires because it can be, security clearances, and then be able to do this.

No, it's rocketry. Sometimes things go boom when they're that volatile to begin with.

EdwardDiego
Sabotage of a SpaceX rocket, on their own pad?

Long bow bro.

TowerTall
I think what SpaceX has accomplished is awesome and extremely impressive, but because of Elon Musk, I hope that some other company will one day leapfrog them and push SpaceX into oblivion.
freejazz
I guess Elon isn't inspiring quite like he used to.
Zardoz84
Working for a nazi, isn't very inspiring
StopDisinfo910
Well, it does have a proven track record in the American space industry.
EdwardDiego
Somehow I missed that one, and the alt text was an amazing 2000s reference.
markus_zhang
NASA teams under a nazi were pretty performant, just for saying.
jordanb
Nah he was apolitical. His job was to make the rockets go up. Where they come down was some other guy's problem.
rurban
It wasn't under a Nazi, it was Nazis only. Until Lyndon Johnson destroyed it, there was only them. But they were no immature manchilds as Elon, they were known to be excellent engineers and managers.
pxmpxm (dead)

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