Preferences

Appreciate your support. From our perspective, the Apple headset is more an "iPad replacement" than a "laptop replacement".[1]

The Vision Pro is based on their iOS (iPad/iPhone) ecosystem for their 2D apps, so you won't be able to use powerhouse office apps. It seems instead more geared towards the passive consumption of information, entertainment, and casual gaming, whereas we're trying to build something that can realistically replace a (Linux) laptop.

I'm not sure what Apple is thinking strategically, but they're structurally incentivized to cannibalize their iPad sales over their macbook sales (since their iPads are their weakest product in their lineup in terms of sales).

[1] https://www.hackerneue.com/item?id=36326677


> It seems instead more geared towards the passive consumption of information, entertainment, and casual gaming, whereas we're trying to build something that can realistically replace a (Linux) laptop.

FWIW, it appears that Apple themselves don't see it as that. They are focusing on consumption for the initial release, but there are clear plans to bring "full" macos apps to Vision Pro.

They haven't released everything, but what you need to know is in the category they're placing AVP: computer. They refer to it as a computer, repeatedly. Not a mobile device. And, all of their computers run Xcode. I would be very surprised if we don't hear more about that by next year.

Can you confirm they want to do that though?

I was suspicious that they are stupid enough to think that this cannibalizing Macbook sales is a valid reason to gimp it like they do the iPad.

However, this tech (AR/VR) is much much bigger than traditional computing and is going to replace the aforementioned and more.

So I sincerely hope that I can do development, pull up a terminal, an so on within the device. That's going to be extremely important I think to use this as a remote working machine (which was my hope for years).

If they can “cannibalise” MacBook sales with something that costs 3x as much they’ll be laughing all the way to the bank.
> However, this tech (AR/VR) is much much bigger than traditional computing and is going to replace the aforementioned and more.

Commercial consumer VR has been available for the better part of a decade now and this doesn't seem even close to happening.

Changes like this go nowhere, then happen rapidly.

Price is too high, features too few, distinct advantages under compelling, and ergonomics too nomic ... until they aren't.

In other words, its a big change of form and function, not to mention the physics tradeoffs of these products, so it makes sense that the right combo is taking a while to fall into place.

If Apple customers, who have the shiny shells to shell out, fall in love with their devices, that will mean a lot.

> Price is too high, features too few, distinct advantages under compelling, and ergonomics too nomic

You just described the iPhone I.

provide tools that aid consumption is what apple does and does well... I think they lucked into create (software not creative) recently... linux gets there first every time. In a beautifully janky way.

but I'm sure I'll be downvoted into oblivion for daring question apple

> The Vision Pro is based on their iOS (iPad/iPhone) ecosystem for their 2D apps, so you won't be able to use powerhouse office apps.

Creators can use the Vision Pro as their Mac's display, and/or run Office directly on Vision Pro.

https://www.tomsguide.com/news/apple-vision-pro-can-be-used-...

https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/5/23749947/apple-vision-pro-...

that's a terrible alternative, the helmet has enough horsepower to run anything a Mac can run

this will be so annoyingly fiddly to set up, nobody is going to use it on a regular basis

why would somebody buy a "pro" device that only lets them VNC into their laptop?

> that's a terrible alternative, the helmet has enough horsepower to run anything a Mac can run

The SimulaVR can't even run Office natively, right? The hobbyists who purchase it will need to use LibreOffice or run Office until emulation, correct?

In contrast, Vision Pro users will be able to run Microsoft Office natively, with an interface optimized for the device.

Where we don't disagree: For you and other folks who need a literal desktop (nosetop?) PC, SimulaVR is clearly the answer.

I know Microsoft Office was a big deal in 1998, but I don't think in 2023 as many people are clamoring for it anymore as you think they are.
Office is still huge in business and academia.
People would buy it because Apple. I sincerely hope Apple isn't this dumb though.

Luckily LG and Meta and Samsung and Google are not playing around and will force Apple's hand with the AVP or overtake Apple entirely.

Oh I agree that if headsets see any success in the next 5 years (I have my doubts after having owned and used many myself) then Apple will always be the "walled garden" alternative and capture a certain percentage of the market. But I think the "log into your laptop" feature they are pushing is not going to be a good experience, and is likely a feature they will never promote and will not invest any development effort into, after the initial launch.
> this will be so annoyingly fiddly to set up

In the WWDC demo video, setting it up went like this:

Look at your Mac, and its desktop pops up in a new AR window.

Marketing video makes thing look easy

TUNE IN FOR OUR FULL REPORT TONIGHT AT 11

Not if you're programming your apps in Unity :P
MS Office has been available for iOS for just over a decade (June 2013).[1] So it will be on Vision Pro at launch.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Office#Mobile_versio...

For me personally, it’s appealing that it just provides a mirror to my existing MacBook. It gives me more flexibility on when to use glasses vs laptop screen, like if I need to take notes in a meeting/lecture hall.
Wow, I wish you all the best with this product, but your view of what apple intends with the vision pro is either intentionally naive or wishful thinking.

I see the vision pro 3-5 years from now being part of anyone's workflow that currently uses 3+ screens. And I don't see how this kickstarter competes. So just arguing "yeah but apple din't think of ..." is not encouraging.

Disagree, I think this is not a good read on Apple strategy and you may be heeding the wrong lessons in computing history.

1. The passive vs active framing applies primarily to non-Pro iPads. I don't think it can be reasonably argued the $3k Vision Pro is attempting to cannibalize low end iPads. iPad Pros are very different beasts that are designed for a particular type of creative output, and are very capable general purpose computing devices now.

2. There's no particular incentive to cannibalize iPad over Mac, its hard to fathom what dimension that makes sense on. They're happy to cannibalize any product, but their main MO is 'look what cool shit we can do with the latest tech' and Vision Pro is today's version of that. Apple is demonstrably way more interested in building out iOS/iPadOS and we've seen that over the past 10 years, to the point Mac users had to basically revolt to get attention.

3. Of course Vision Pro is based on iPad ecosystem, as its a far more modern set of conventions better suited to mixed modal input than Mac. That isn't a reflection of VP's purpose, but of engineering and design realities - it's far easier to grow iPad/iOS into a top tier spatial computing OS and ecosystem.

While MacOS is wonderful, it's really a product of a particular conception of computing, and shoehorning a 40 year old desktop OS paradigm into entirely new input modalities and ergonomic contexts makes little sense. The puck isn't going anywhere new, the desktop OS modality is baked. Apps will need to adapt to the wondrous new capabilities and constraints of the platform.

Looking at your presentation [1] it's clear the ergonomics are going to be a sticking point, which is a combined hardware & app ecosystem problem: the novelty of windows everywhere bumps up against the human factors / ergonomic fatigue constraints of moving one's head around around more than a few degrees (and whatever you do, don't optimize for looking up!), and app windows with tiny UI elements are going to be similarly fatiguing and unable to adapt to the promise and limitations in accuracy of gaze tracking.

There's a reason WinCE's desktop OS paradigms failed in PDAs whereas iOS succeeded - you need to reinvent the experience when you move modalities. I would argue the exact same thing will happen in AR/VR: sticking with a desktop OS paradigm is a losing proposition.

Just my 2c. Personally I really want to see a variety of offerings and possibilities in the market but I also want them to be based on sound reasoning and approach, which I go into a bit in this essay on category-defining products [2].

[1] https://simulavr.com/blog/seeking-investment/

[2] https://nickpunt.com/blog/category-defining-products/

> There's a reason WinCE's desktop OS paradigms failed in PDAs whereas iOS succeeded - you need to reinvent the experience when you move modalities. I would argue the exact same thing will happen in AR/VR: sticking with a desktop OS paradigm is a losing proposition.

I think you've nailed it here. I never thought of it in those terms before, but now that I see it, it's obvious.

It reminds me of the (probably apocryphal) story of Henry Ford saying that his customers didn't want cars - they wanted faster horses. I think there's something analogous here. If all you are offering is a Linux desktop in VR, you're making faster horses.

When I think about where a novel new VR mode is going to come from, it's either going to be Apple or a research team at a liberal arts college. Technologists can really only solve half the problem.

I dunno. this is a nice story, but at the end of the day an android phone is just a slightly tweaked linux box. The buttons are a little bigger, the small screen is optimized for one window at a time, and there's a pop up keyboard...

They are specifically designing a VR-based window manager here. And it's linux and a community of hackers, and open source. I think you'll see community imitations and tweaks and improvements on the apple formula as an option almost immediately.

This item has no comments currently.

Keyboard Shortcuts

Story Lists

j
Next story
k
Previous story
Shift+j
Last story
Shift+k
First story
o Enter
Go to story URL
c
Go to comments
u
Go to author

Navigation

Shift+t
Go to top stories
Shift+n
Go to new stories
Shift+b
Go to best stories
Shift+a
Go to Ask HN
Shift+s
Go to Show HN

Miscellaneous

?
Show this modal