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That's wild, I think we were Facebook friends for awhile after I interviewed and hung out over there on a few occasions.

I was doing an onsite with Ilya and the folks at MixRank (in 2012) and talking with the team, and I mentioned something about cryptography and some basic codes that I learned as a child in gifted class. They had no idea what I was talking about - not the codes but "gifted class". I was telling them it was pretty common in public school systems - once a week or a few hours a day where you took advanced topics in another classroom with other kids that had tested into the program. They had no idea.

I started asking the founders if they went to public school. They never had. And then they were curious and started asking the other employees. Not a single one had ever set foot in a public school for elementary, middle, or high school. Then one guy in the back piped up - "you know, I think $devname went to Berkeley."

Ilya went to Wisconsin.
Very interesting. Was this common in YC, do you know, or was MixRank unusual?
This is just unreal. this guy was living a double life of being the greatest criminal ever. So among our community was a $4 billion hacker, just nonchalantly posting.

I don't think he will be commenting anytime soon again if this really is him

https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=il

like your neighbor being a serial killer or something

I don't understand why he wouldn't move to somewhere that doesn't have an extradition policy with the US. If you go down that path, it seems like you should probably be willing to abandon your life. It's the same with Ross Ulbricht, seems like it would be terrifying living with that sword of damocles hanging over your head absolutely constantly.
Humans notoriously overestimate their competence and underestimate dangers they face. Combine that with a federal investigation that's going to be slow because 1) it's complex and 2) the feds will happily investigate you for years if it increases their chance of a conviction, and you've got a recipe for people who think they got away with it right up until the moment of arrest.
Yea, listening to enough stories on Darknet Diaries about how people get caught it’s pretty crazy. Honestly makes working in the groups that catch people like this sound very interesting.
I imagine it's very very very boring for a while, with relatively brief moments of satisfaction.
Sounds like the usual $DAYJOB for basically everybody here
and underestimate the competence of governments/law enforcement.
I think it's more underestimating the attention span of governments/law enforcement.

When someone steals your bike, the cops could spend weeks investigating, interviewing witnesses, searching Craiglist, Facebook Marketplace, staking out the neighborhood for anyone riding the stolen bike, etc.

But they don't, because it's a bike. But steal $3.6 billion, you'll hold their attention for a bit!

That requires that you did something that you are very sure the country you end up in won't just prosecute you for themselves. If your crime is massively embarrassing to the US govt you go to Russia, or heinous sexual assault of a 13yo, France. But I think most of the usual culprits in this case would just prosecute you.
We disagree it was heinous and believe it's prescribed, thank you. Polanski is a French citizen and will not be given to the US, but if an american is demanded, we ll give him back on the double.

It s what they seem not to explain in movies: we protect our brothers in citizenship against exaggerated foreign conviction, but not foreigners.

Wow, justification for rape right here. He was 43 when it happened.

https://idlewords.com/2010/05/an_annotated_letter_from_roman...

A link in there has expired. Archived here:

https://web.archive.org/web/20100130223615/http://www.thesmo...

No justification for rape, we do not believe the americans are rational and contextualized his crime, and are only perceiving Polanski with an emotional lense, decades after the fact.

I dont care myself, just telling you why we ll never give him as a country. We simply feel different emotions (here doubt in France vs horror in the US). No need to ad hominem me in isolation as if I supported rape. I just know the media portray him as a victim of a 120 years-sentence justice system.

If he raped someone yday, like our ex-future-president DSK did in NYC, by all means, keep him, and we d give him back if he fled. But that also turned out a puritain whitch hunt in the end so it's hard to trust americans with our citizens.

What do you mean by "prescribed" here?
He means that the statute of limitations (a.k.a. prescriptive period) has run out.
I find it especially baffling considering he has Russian citizenship.
He probably didn't think he'd get caught. I mean it's not a large proportion of crypto thieves/fraudsters who are. Less than 1%?
$4B that you can't spend in the US (or any country that will allow for extradition) isn't nearly as good as $4B that you can.
Shoulda just changed it to Monero, transferred it to an anon account and then had that account buy dumb NFTs off himself. That seems to be how it's done these days.
It would have been tough, but I'm sure they could have survived.
If he goes somewhere which doesn't have extradition, FED's will just call him and tell him they will go public that he has $4B bitcoin and ALL criminals will be hunting them after that.
I'm not certain I understand. There are billionaires in the world already. How do they protect themselves from criminals?

Granted, their billions aren't in cash. However, once he fled the country he could immediately start converting his position to other assets that aren't so easily stolen. He'd also be able to afford to hide himself, pay taxes and bribes, and pay for some security.

Most billionaires aren't in the countries that lack extradition treaties. The few that are can be assumed to be paying steeply for protection, in both senses of the word.
$4Bn can buy some pretty good fake identities.
You pay them off?
The work of preparing to leave the country is necessarily public in a way that doing crypto stuff might not be. I suspect they were worried that preparing to leave the country would tip their hand - and they could have been caught earlier if they tried it. It just turns out they were caught anyway.
Hmm what work is that? Getting a visa? With that much cash I'd leave first (on a tourist visa) and figure the rest out later..
Yea, maybe bring your cat or dog but literally pack like you're going on vacation. If they arrest you before leaving the country then you were screwed already.
Americans don't need to apply for a Visa to visit most of the world. They just get one automatically on arrival.

They could have just bought a Vanuatu passport with bitcoin (~$150k), then travelled there for a holiday. Leave the US with the US passport and arrive in Van with the Van passport. CHange their name in Vanuatu, then move to a 3rd country to settle permanently with a new name. Maybe change it one more time and gain citizenship in that third country, and that'd be enough to disappear for regular people.

The spooks will still find you, but without extradition powers...

Well, then you need to move to Russia or Venesuela or Iran or such.

Goodbuy to the luxurious live you enjoy in SV. Part of being a financial criminal is to post about "hustle culture" on linkedin and doing LSD with VC buddies or something

People with a lot of money live luxuriously in Russia. Not sure about the other countries. Just gotta be sure you didn't hijack any of Putin's bitcoins tho ...
If they were so concerned, the much better and easier decision would be not to commit the crime in the first place. People who rob others and commit serious crimes have a problem with risk and self-control.
I wish people would stop saying 'non extradition country' like that's a real thing.

Brokep moved to Cambodia for that reason. They still got him anyway. If the powers want you, they can find away to get you. The only options I can imagine are publicly embarrassing the US government to the delight of Vladimir Putin or making a very large donation to the Cuban government.

You can still be extradited, it's just not automatic.
To degrade signal to noise, such people need to pay you and others willing to relocate to such jurisdictions. You know, to make it less obvious who is evading extradition.

I wonder what the penalty is for accepting money to uproot your life because you have nothing to hide. Well, _had_ nothing to hide.

That last comment is pretty prophetic:

"Like it or hate it, there is a sea change happening in how governments treat cryptocurrency. "

Wonder how he feels about that sea change now.

Meh. Governments have long arrested cryptocurrency criminals. This is hardly a sea change.
It is for him
He was just a million-dollar hacker, but the power of HODL boosted his illicit fortune to the billion-dollar range.
His theoretical fortune, on paper. Even if the coins were legit you can't just cash out those kinds of amounts.
reading a bit about him and the hack (which at some point was for example blamed on those Israeli brothers with connections to IDF hacking unit) i kind of not sure that he is the hacker ( and note that he is charged with laundering not hacking) - he in my view better fits the profile of the "investor"/"fencer" whose involvement would be to launder.

Sidenote: one of the reasons i don't touch crypto is possible laundering charge/suspicion if the tokens happens to had passed through unsavory hands/situation (which may be even unknown at the time) or God forbid 2-3 transactions after me the tokens get involved in terrorism/etc. - imagine as a minimum for example the "FBI background check" hell your GC/etc. will be stuck forever ...

> Sidenote: one of the reasons i don't touch crypto is possible laundering charge/suspicion if the tokens happens to had passed through unsavory hands/situation

A page recently posted here ([1], citing [2]) claimed that there's a market for freshly mined Bitcoin (i.e. with no history), with people paying as much as 20% markup for it to avoid such risks.

I didn't make any attempt to verify this claim.

[1] https://sethforprivacy.com/posts/fungibility-graveyard/

[2] https://news.bitcoin.com/industry-execs-freshly-minted-virgi...

It still doesn't protect from possible future tainting of those tokens and thus suspicion of your participation. It may be even more suspicious as you would be the one who bought clean coins supposedly in order to minimize attention to whatever future crime the tokens may be involved.
or actually it is money launderers looking for tokens with no previous history they can use to evade some % of future scrutiny
So you get 1.2 btc from unknown origin for 1 fresh btc. looks like the simplest laundering scheme.
I'm really amused that he is currently listed as a mentor for 500 Startups. I wonder how good his advice has been?
Don't get caught.
Fake it until you're too big to shut down and then pay the fine?
I noticed both on twitter and his HN posts, there's a big gap between 2015 and 2019.
il on May 15, 2013

>As the anarchists and idealists on HN will soon learn, the decentralized nature of Bitcoin won't make a difference if anyone transmitting it is in violation of federal law.

https://www.hackerneue.com/item?id=5714963

Did he change his mind?

There's some irony his most recent post on this timeline being "there is a sea change happening in how governments treat cryptocurrency" too. That's certainly true for him.
Sounds like he knew this all along but didn't care
Always keep posting to avoid suspicion.
> being the greatest criminal ever

I think you are tad exaggerating here. not the dumbest but not certainly anything close to being competent. leaving keys in a cloud storage and not using OTC crypto exchanges outside US.

It's unbelievable stupid to use mixers on a public ledger because its all traceable and immutable. The really smart "criminals" DO NOT live in the US, especially NEW YORK out of all places, they DO NOT leave stupid social media posts or spend time chasing the vapid social media fame, they DO NOT use mixers because they are all points of surveillance.

I won't detail how one could've gotten away with this loot but there is an obvious hint here, blockchain is simply a means of temporary storage to move dirty money. Tether is largely considered a pipeline for illicit funds from China to move out to the West. They absolutely do not do any of the transactions on the blockchain, it is all done through highly organized criminal networks involving banks, shells, casinos.

Honestly, it would surprise me more if you told me that there are no high profile crackers/cybercriminals in this website.
that money was never real, they never had a chance of spending even 0.1% of it. lol does anyone really think they could have accessed and spent that much money, in any way?
they did take a small yet real PPP money :)

https://www.thedailybeast.com/heather-morgan-rapping-tech-ce...

“The only other significant deposit to the account was an approximately $11,000 U.S. Small Business Administration Paycheck Protection Program (PPP) loan advance provided in response to the COVID-19 crisis,” the complaint states.

> greatest

Assuming their guilt: "worst", or "most shameful" are the terms I would use. An embarassment to any community they were in.

A hacker? On Hacker News? Well, I would never.
Well, there is a persistent rumour that Ghislaine Maxwell was a mod on some large subreddits, and had a top ten amount of karma on there.
> greatest criminal ever

well they caught him, so not that great, eh

omg - murder really?
Heh... He has some comments on "Feds reveal the search warrant used to seize Mt. Gox account " in 2013:

As the anarchists and idealists on HN will soon learn, the decentralized nature of Bitcoin won't make a difference if anyone transmitting it is in violation of federal law. --

This was inevitable. People can wax rhapsodic about the decentralized nature of Bitcoin, but once the feds freeze a few million dollars of a major exchange's assets, as they have done with every single anonymous digital currency since the beginning of time (e-gold,1mdc,Liberty Dollar) and launch a criminal investigation, the currency will be severely destabilized. Within the next year I expect to see a cottage industry emerge where the true believers cash out frozen bitcoin accounts for pennies on the dollar.

and a few other:

https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=il&next=5714990

>As the anarchists and idealists on HN will soon learn

I don't know to whom this actually refers. I don't remember anything about enabling money laundering in Satoshi's white paper.

Motte, meet bailey.
> Also, angel investor in promising startups and crypto technologies.

Should have just become a limited partner in one of the Silicon Valley PE funds, next to the Oligarchs

Andreessen roasting this guy all morning is making my day: https://twitter.com/pmarca/status/1491150099518398466
Replies to his tweet are just top notch.

“your memes do have out-of-touch-dad-trying-to-be-cool energy tho”

Wow, twitter went full pinterest now and refuses to let me read tweets without an account ...
Let's be fair to these individuals and not presume guilt.

In the US, it's "innocent until proven guilty".

Media is so quick to assume the person is guilty just because of an allegation.

That's the standard for our criminal justice system, not for us as individuals. It sounds from the release that the justice department has a boatload of compelling evidence against them.
There's a reason why the criminal justice system operates like that though. The system has been designed like that because it turned that it is a very good idea not to go on witch hunts or to assume guilt if you want a functional society. I'm not defending the person involved here, but it's important to remember that the presumption of innocence isn't just an abstract legal concept instead of a very important part of the social contract.
Surely the important distinction here is that the state has the power to imprison or execute people. In our day to day lives, we frequently make decisions based on things not proved to that standard, such as in job interviews or on dates. Presumption of innocence is very much an abstract legal contrivance, though it's insightful to see in what cases people suddenly decide it needs to be applied outside that realm.
ask Lindy Chamberlain
I could literally watch someone pick up a gun and shoot someone. Technically they're still innocent until a court of law says they're guilty. But as an individual I don't need to wait to think they're guilty.

The question is where do you draw the line as an individual.

Non-lawyers often seem to misunderstand this phrase. "Innocent until proven guilty" is a statement defining the fact that in criminal cases, the burden of proof rests with the government. They have to present evidence proving your guilt beyond a reasonable doubt; you don't have to present any evidence proving your innocence beyond a reasonable doubt.

That's all it means. Obviously judges are not supposed to come into a case assuming you are guilty, but you can say that about any type of case. The phrase certainly doesn't mean we have to pretend that you are perfectly innocent up until the point of verdict.

Do you think it is wrong for a person to believe OJ was guilty of the murder he was accused of? If a person decides to keep their distance from their new neighbour OJ and not treat them with neighbourly kindness and open arms because of that murder, would you admonish them for treating OJ differently for something he was never found guilty of in the court of law?
No, because in the case of OJ we have more than just what the prosecution (in this case, the DoJ) accused him of doing. My point isn't that you can't make your own judgment or that only court decisions are valid source sources of truth. What I'm saying here is that any opinion/analysis we can make at this stage are basically entirely based on the prosecution, since we don't have any other facts to go by.

Unless you already knew the people involved or we have some third party sources, we are basically just believing the side that only has 1 goal; showing how guilty the people they prosecute are. How could that mean anything else but assuming guilt?

(And honestly I think that personal feelings towards a person are very often good enough to make a personal judgment on guilt, but we don't even have that here! I'd bet most of us never heard of them before today)

This is why I like the Scottish "not proven" acquittal verdict as an intermediate third option between "not guilty" and "guilty."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_proven

It's not wrong for a person to believe anything and act accordingly. It's not even wrong to argue that we should not describe the accused as innocent (as long as you acknowledge what the official approach suggests before ignoring it). We are all morally free to treat OJ however we like (and everyone else is morally able to judge us for it).

What is wrong is for media organizations (which can be as small as independent reporters) to break expected traditions w/o acknowledging it. It suggests that this case is different (and again, it might be different) implicitly, which isn't ethical. You should either work within the prevailing assumptions of the system, or explicitly defy them in a principled maner.

> he presumption of innocence isn't just an abstract legal concept instead of a very important part of the social contract.

I don't think this is in practice true, as a matter of fact rather than an ideal. People don't, in general, behave the same with other people who are currently being prosecuted for a crime.

This certainly doesn't mean (most) people support vigilantism or witch hunts, or even that you assume guilt. However it seems clear the vast majority of people are fine with the idea that you might be "careful" with someone who is suspected of a crime, especially one being actively prosecuted. To the degree that many will claim they have a right to know this is happening, i.e. they will argue that news should be carried on this (although perhaps no editorializing). This absolutely is not the same as presumption of innocence.

Sometimes this is very unfair, obviously. But "the social contract" as it is practised seems to be pretty ok with that.

The reason is that the criminal justice system imposes heavy penalties for those convicted and therefore they have to be extra careful. My words have no real effect so I can convict anyone I like.
> "It sounds from the release that the justice department has a boatload of compelling evidence against them."

You'd hope that before someone is arrested, the prosecutor has ample evidence to prove guilt.

I don't understand your point.

These individuals have not been proven guilty yet. Why are you editorializing their presumed guilt in this matter.

Note: I have no affiliation with these individuals nor case.

He's saying that the law presumes innocence until proven guilty. They don't throw you in jail or take your money until the legal process reaches a judgement, and this is pretty normal and uncontroversial.

But you don't have to keep going for drinks with a person who's just been arrested and let out on bail, you can make up your own opinion as you feel. You can say bad things about him before the judge does, you can deny them business opportunities, your kids don't have to play with his kids.

Disagree. You can make your opinion and you can take your precautions. But unless you were not directly harmed you should not “say bad things about them”, as you put it, just because they are a suspect in a case.
>Disagree. You can make your opinion and you can take your precautions. But unless you were not directly harmed you should not “say bad things about them”, as you put it, just because they are a suspect in a case.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Regardless of whether you "were not directly harmed" I don't see why someone should or shouldn't “say bad things about them."

Why shouldn't I express my opinion? Or are we in "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" territory?

I may be misunderstanding your point. If so, please do correct me. If not, I don't see why I (or anyone else) shouldn't express their opinion WRT anything.

What value that opinion may have can certainly be debated, but why should someone not express their opinion?

But you are not going by any other evidence than what the prosecution is showing here. Unless you have an insider perspective or were close enough to those involved, you don't really have anything to go by in judging their guilt than what the prosecution wants to show (and they will obviously be extremely biaised, that's the point!). So by de facto believing the prosecution, you aren't really doing anything else than assuming guilt.

You can obviously do that, but it makes little sense to do so when the system has been built around not taking what the prosecution says at face value or as a source of truth. The job of the prosecution is not to show the facts, it's to prosecute. Yes you don't have to go by the standards of the judicial system & presume innocence here, but why then use the prosecution's case when it only makes sense in the context of how our judicial system works?

> But you are not going by any other evidence than what the prosecution is showing here.

I haven't mentioned either the prosecution or the defense.

The defense makes noises too, and you are welcome to make your own mix of whatever you like.

But to repeat the point, you are under no obligation, it is the official system that is.

And plenty of innocent people have had their lives ruined because of exactly this behavior.
Actually they are happy to take your money before the legal process reaches a judgement. If you aren't familiar with the process of civil forfeiture you might want to look into it.
> You can say bad things about him before the judge does

Yup, I don’t understand how people is not used yet to public trials at social networks

It's pretty normal for people to look at the evidence and be able to decide if someone was guilty or not.

If someone is on video shooting someone, it is a bit silly to say "Why are you editorializing their presumed guilt in this matter."

Kyle Rittenhouse would like a word with you.
Grand juries indict in >99% of cases. It's just a rubber-stamp. The grand jury only hears the prosecutor's side. They can say pretty much anything. Please find me a case where a prosecutor or LEO was charged with perjury for lying to a grand jury.

I've been indicted twice and both times the grand jury transcripts were just lies.

In fact, I got someone released after 16 months in jail on a burglary charge because their grand jury was lies. The story the cop told was a complete fabrication.

I think the commentor is stating that you and I have no reason to presume innocence until proven guilty. We can make up our own opinion. However, the judicial system has to assume innocence so the defendant can get a fair trial.
But not so much that they let them go. Quite often there is a very fast hearing within 1-2 weeks where a Judge decides to lock them up for 2 years without parole awaiting trial, because it's pretty damn clear they're probably guilty - enough initial evidence not to let them back out into society at least.
check out the affidavit accompanying the criminal complaint: https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1470186/downl...

yes, they're legally presumed innocent but they have a LOT of 'splaining to do.

feds seldom lose, 98+% conviction rate
Federal lawyers are expensive, especially if the defendant is innocent. Being accused is already a punishment.
For non-high profile investigations (investigations that were not in the media before charges), announcing charges typically has a large body of evidence and a lot of confidence in the accusation.

Of course innocent until proven guilty applies but the justice department knows that and still brought charges. At the very least, they believe they've proven beyond a reasonable doubt his guilt.

High profile cases with public pressure change the equation a bit and can cause charges to be brought on people who normally would not. I suspect this is a way to pass the buck to the courts when the person eventually gets off due to lack of evidence.

>Of course innocent until proven guilty applies but the justice department knows that and still brought charges. At the very least, they believe they've proven beyond a reasonable doubt his guilt.

It's a bit of a nitpick, but the Justice Department (DoJ) hasn't proven anything.

The defendants in question have been charged (and arrested?), but no trial (or plea bargain) has been held. As such, presumably the DoJ has what they believe is sufficient evidence to convict the defendants on the charges brought against them.

However, until a trial (or a plea agreement) is concluded, the DoJ hasn't "proven" anything. Rather, they brought charges against some folks. That's not "proven beyond a reasonable doubt," that's making accusations and bringing the case into the court system.

What the DoJ believes (and/or believes it can prove) is not proof in and of itself.

I mean that they have proven it to themselves, I don't mean it in a legal sense.
> I mean that they have proven it to themselves, I don't mean it in a legal sense.

A fair point. And it's likely you're correct.

Although using the term 'prove' has specific legal meaning that many (myself included) folks would associate with the use of that term.

As I said, there's what you believe and what you can prove. Believing you can prove something may be well founded, but at least in the US nothing is actually "proven" until it has been adjudicated -- and even then contrary decisions (e.g., in an appeal) can "un-prove" stuff.

The whole quote from me was, "...they believe they've proven".

Perhaps a better phrasing would be "believe they can prove".

> Of course innocent until proven guilty applies but the justice department knows that and still brought charges. At the very least, they believe they've proven beyond a reasonable doubt his guilt.

No, if following general DoJ policy, they believe that the evidence is sufficient that they will be able to prove the charges beyond a reasonable doubt, but that's not the same as them already having proven that.

> High profile cases with public pressure change the equation a bit and can cause charges to be brought on people who normally would not.

Usually, I think the opposite is the case: generally, the DoJ is more careful in high-profile cases, not more cavalier.

> Usually, I think the opposite is the case: generally, the DoJ is more careful in high-profile cases, not more cavalier.

I'm not sure Rittenhouse would have been charged at all and, based on how the trial went and how weak the evidence was, he should have, at best, been charged with something much more minor. But that's just one example.

I somewhat agree with you, they are more careful but I think they are more careful in their own process. To make sure their ducks are all in a row. But, when it comes to actually pressing charges or agreeing to plea deals, I think they are much more likely to overcharge or not negotiate so that the case is no longer on their desk and they can say "I did my part".

To use the Rittenhouse example, I think the public expectations of charges impacted the charges because the ones bringing charges are often elected officials (or appointed by them) so there's an incentive to not look at what can be proven with the evidence and instead charge with what the public thinks is "right". The incentive for an elected official is to appease the public with charges, convictions be damned because that's someone else's problem. That's how Rittenhouse's case played out too. Outside of conservative media, there was a lot of attention paid to the judge and the lawyers not being able to prove their case rather than floating the idea that maybe a lesser charge and a conviction was the right thing to do.

On the other hand, I think you saw the same course of events with the George Floyd case but with a different result. The investigation was drawn out and meticulous and charges were brought. That resulted in a conviction but the implication I'm making is that those charges would have been brought regardless of evidence because of the public nature of the case.

This highlights two very different sets of cases.

In the Rittenhouse case, both prosecution and defence agree that Rittenhouse was a person who had a gun in his arms and fired it, resulting in death. The thing the prosecution needed to prove is that in doing so, he committed a crime. Prior to the trial, it was not necessary to express agnosticism about whether he had a firearm, fired it, or firing it resulted in anyone's death, even if there was some sense in which he was "innocent until proven guilty" of the conduct being criminal.

In this case, there is essentially no room for dispute that stealing $71 million, engaging in a vast money laundering conspiracy is in fact illegal. If these people actually had these accounts and actually used this money in this manner, there is no chance they will not be found guilty. The affidavit is not compatible with a set of the same basic facts leading to a different legal conclusion.

So the question is whether or not you think there's any possibility that the feds cavalierly misidentified the people in possession of these accounts. That seems pretty unlikely, given the affidavit suggests withdrawing small amounts of the stolen money to use Uber under their actual names, buy stuff on PlayStation under their actual names, etc; and that the private keys were taken from a cloud storage account actually belonging to the guy; and that the woman contacted various exchanges and talked about the actual company she actually owns, and the guy actually has a documented record of talking extensively about cryptocurrency including on this site using his actual name.

It is, of course, possible that the entire affidavit is a lie, made up whole cloth and all of this evidence is totally fake and the accused were minding their own business working on their gourmet cupcake business in Kansas City, and they don't understand anything about no crypto-whatsit. But I don't think that's a scenario that really requires much investigation, and it instead is a level of solipsism on par with "we can't actually know if gravity will cause us to fall" or "what if this is a simulation".

What I'm saying is that not all uncertainty is equal, either in kind or in probability, and so it makes more sense to be honest about that than equivocate across very dissimilar cases.

> I'm not sure Rittenhouse would have been charged at all and, based on how the trial went and how weak the evidence was, he should have, at best, been charged with something much more minor. But that's just one example

...of a case the US DoJ wasn't involved in prosecuting, because it was prosecuted by a completely separate sovereignty.

Not sure how that's an example of DoJ prosecutorial decision-making.

(And that's even before considering if comparison of actual events in one case to the speakers own stated opinion of how a counterfactual hypothetical would turn out, rather than contrasting real events, is really good evidence of a comparative behavior difference.)

There is what appears to be a rather amusing side-effect of this principle:

“The arrests today show that we will take a firm stand against those who allegedly try to use virtual currencies for criminal purposes.” - Assistant Attorney General Kenneth A. Polite Jr. [My emphasis.]

There's no reason for the Justice Dept. not to take a firm stand against those who try to use virtual currencies for criminal purposes, or say that they are doing so - and, in fact, that would be rather better than taking a firm stand against those who have merely been accused of doing so. I guess that 'allegedly' was inserted here in order to forestall a claim that this statement deprived the defendants in this case of due process, if or when it comes to trial.

>I guess that 'allegedly' was inserted here in order to forestall a claim that this statement deprived the defendants in this case of due process, if or when it comes to trial.

Actually, the 'allegedly' bit was inserted because the defendants in this case are alleged to have committed some criminal act(s). They have not been proven (whether via a trial or a plea agreement) to have done so.

The defendants may well be "guilty," or they may not. That's what the legal process (as flawed as it may be) is constituted to determine.

Forming an opinion at to whether or not anyone has committed an illegal act(s) is perfectly normal and reasonable. However, unless you're a member of a jury in a trial, your opinion generally won't affect the outcome.

All that said, defendants are "alleged" to have committed criminal act(s) until the case has been adjudicated, whether that be by trial or plea agreement.

N.B.: IANAL.

I se I have not made my point clear here. The quoted statement is not referring to these defendants in particular, it is referring to those who try to use virtual currencies for criminal purposes in general - yet the language appropriate for referring to specific defendants creeps in here, presumably out of concern that some people cannot tell the difference.

When a crime has been committed, it was not allegedly done by a person or persons unknown, it was actually done by whoever they were. One of the jobs of the justice department is to catch criminals, not alleged criminals.

The federal government has a ridiculously high conviction rate: 99.96% [1]. They basically only bring the case if they have everything they need to convict.

1. https://www.bhlawfirm.com/blog/2021/05/the-federal-convictio....

What portion of those convictions are plea bargains?

This article says 97%: https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/prisons-are-packed-bec...

Why are people so eager to confess their guilt instead of challenging the government to prove their guilt beyond a reasonable doubt to the satisfaction of a unanimous jury?

The answer is simple and stark: They’re being coerced.

This is a pretty silly argument. I'm not opining on whether or not prosecutions are coercive; I'm certain they are. But a lower conviction rate would be a bad thing: it would mean the DOJ was bringing more cases they weren't certain they would win, and even exoneration comes with immense costs to the accused.
The argument around plea bargains is pretty simple. You have someone over a barrel: "Take the deal and go to prison for two or five years, or take a risk on a trial where you'll be put away for life. And btw, our conviction rate is 99.96%."

You'd be crazy not to take the deal, even if you're innocent. Thus, the conviction rate doesn't actually tell us much about how strong the federal cases actually are.

I wasn't replying to a claim that a high conviction rate is a good thing (or better than a lower one).

I was replying to a claim that a high conviction rate somehow suggests we should dispense with the idea that, as a society, we should not presume guilt.

grumple, who I replied to, seemed to me to be suggesting that because the federal government has a high conviction rate, we should assume the accused are guilty.

I'm suggesting that because there is compelling evidence that many guilty verdicts are obtained through coercion, we should not make that assumption.

Nobody is suggesting we presume guilt. The suggestion is that we're not required to defer opinions about guilt until after a jury trial, which is sensible.
Even your local circuit court probably has a 95%+ conviction rate. If you're innocent of a charge that carries 20 years and your attorney says you have 50/50 shot at trial of winning, or you can plea guilty and take probation what do you do?

Most people take it, and now they have a record. Any future fuck ups (guilty or not) and you're looking at real jail time.

People are still free to have opinions on the case. The purpose of this legal principle is to put the burden of proof on the prosecution, i.e the government can't simply blame you for a crime and force you to dig up evidence of innocence.

People can disagree even if you're found innocent at trial... just look at OJ's case. The government isn't going to prosecute him again, but "OJ did it" is gonna dog him for the rest of his life.

Heather Morgan admitted to the hack on TikTok

https://twitter.com/BillSPACman/status/1491131214014869505

Edit: whoops. That video is fake. It's from

https://www.tiktok.com/@realrazzlekhan/video/690851478968159...

It's the feds not some southern yokel state attorney. We're just going with the odds. No one here is saying throw them in prison without a trial.
The person you are responding to does not seem to have taken a position on the guilt or innocence of these individuals and has only noted an affiliation.
I love how the LinkedIn profile says “Interested in blockchain technology”. Ya don’t say…
Thin red line between scamming and hustling.
Well, yes. If you can socially engineer customer support staff, you can do the same to venture capitalists.
Then it seems pure luck that some conniving sociopath at the top can lead a company to produce useful goods.
That's extremely subjective to your definition of useful. Investing in the best con artist isn't exactly a bad deal so long as you aren't the last mark.
Depends on the nature of the con. Not everything's Ponzi. Some scams are advance fee, snake oil, getting the mark's payment details, identity theft, or something else that makes a loss for every mark.
Interesting that the hack occurred in 2016, and in the same year he left MixRank.
Makes you wonder if he left because he realized he could hack $70m in Bitcoin, or he hacked $70m in Bitcoin because he had left and had nothing else to do (the hack happened in August and he left in May).
It would be ironic if the "cloud storage account" the feds accessed was Dropbox. "YC company helped indict YC founder"
They wrote that cloud storage is of the same provider as their email. So I guess Google.
Maybe. Apple has iCloud. Microsoft has Azure, OneCloud, Sharepoint, hosted Exchange, O365. Cloudflare has R2 and has at least a beta of email routing.
And don't ask me how I found it, but that's her: https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=rogueeconomist
If Reddit.com/r/worldnews can have Ghislaine Maxwell (of the epstein case) as a moderator (u/maxwellhill) -- then Ycombinator gets its own billionaire criminal.
Did you mean to say Ghislaine?
100% that is what I meant to say. thanks.
That's a nice username I guess.
Crazy, I remember meeting him before our interview.
From the last comment, on 2021-11-04:

> Like it or hate it, there is a sea change happening in how governments treat cryptocurrency.

"Founder of Endpass - a blockchain startup solving problems in decentralized identity and authentication"
> On a LinkedIn page that appears to belong to Morgan, however, she is listed as a partner at Demandpath, a “boutique micro-fund investing” firm. A LinkedIn profile seemingly belonging to Lichtenstein also places him at Demandpath. Prior to that, he’s described on Crunchbase as a founder of the advertising research startup MixRank, which was incubated at Y Combinator and raised more than $1.5 million in funding from Mark Cuban and other venture capitalists. (Lichtenstein is nowhere to be found on MixRank’s website.) Neither Demandpath nor MixRank responded to BuzzFeed News’ request for comment.

> Cuban told BuzzFeed News his last email exchange with Lichtenstein was in 2012. “I also found an email saying he left MixRank 6 years ago. That’s the extent of what I know about the guy,” Cuban said.

> Y Combinator did not respond to BuzzFeed News’ request for comment.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/sarahemerson/crypto-lau...

Grifters go grift to grift

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