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I worry a lot about privacy in general but its hard for me to figure out the danger posed by my roborock. I suppose it has the floor plans of my house and knows we vacuum on Saturdays. It doesn't seem to know if the object passing by is me or my cat.

Yes its on my wifi but so are half a dozen other foreign made gadgets.

What is the concern?


I think this is the wrong mental model (attempt to articulate threats from a specific information leakage). The problem I have with this approach is that it ignores "sensor fusion" by treating each leak as independent and defining threats as "things i can picture happening".

I think the correct mental model for this is "leaking bits". Leaking bits is bad, it doesn't take many bits to uniquely identify you and you're also not able to anticipate how those bits might be used in future or correlated with other bits.

Just stop leaking bits when you can avoid it. Then you don't have to mentally model every threat you come across

One of the more tractable examples here is the information what cell towers your cell phone is connected to. On it's own, it doesn't tell you that much.

But if you have this from 2-3 people, you can start inferring if they are meeting sporadically, meet a lot, possibly live together.

Or, if you add information about the services in the vicinity of cell towers, you can start deducing changes in a persons life. Suddenly the phone is moving more, to places with a doctor nearby, a gynecologist nearby, clothing stores, furniture stores, ... eventually a hospital. Start mixing in information about the websites they visit...

This incremental discovery of information about a person is surprisingly powerful depending on the data you have and hard to predict.

I agree with this completely. I feel like my phone is leaking so much sensitive information about me in so many ways. And it has access to my location, my communications, my finances. And it is hard to turn off. I can turn off my vacuum cleaner for months if I want. I can't turn off my phone or the computer in my car.

I guess that's why the vacuum doesn't worry me. The phone really does.

Totally agree, but my point is that you shouldn't be modeling this by looking at various devices and calculating worry thresholds

Just stop leaking willingly leaking bits for little or no upside instead it's much simpler

In a scenario, where the US and China go to an actual shooting war, moving a couple million high-energy-density devices near the most flammable object in a houshold and purposefully setting the device on fire would be an interesting new variety of shock and awe. Not too new actually, thinking about the mossad pager attack.
Maybe it would be a bad idea to get into a shooting war, then. Seems like these little Roombas might act as deterrence and help to preserve peace!
Mutually Assured Domestic Cleaning?
Exactly! This is why some Chinese people are avoiding iPhones at all cost.
The concern - for you, maybe nothing. However, the new company could say "turn on microphone for all vacuums in the DC area and send transcripts to us" (trying to capture private conversations of politicians. Or it could do the same for vacuums located new military bases or corporate headquarters. With transcription software and AI, it could simply record and transcribe every conversation it hears and look for important information or mentions of key phrases.
> However, the new company could say "turn on microphone for all vacuums in the DC area and send transcripts to us"

The old company could have done the same thing. I recognize that China is a u.s. geopolitical adversary, but when it comes to politics domestic adversaries are just as ruthless.

The old company wasn't a domestic political adversary; it was a capitalist corporation.

I'm not making moral comparisons; I'm just saying that the motivations of the PRRC and Coca-Cola are different.

> The old company wasn't a domestic political adversary

That depends entirely on the politics in question. It's well known that corporations are willing to abuse their power for political ends if it serves their interests to do so.

It was a capitalist corporation beholden to demands by domestic law enforcement and intelligence agencies.

And just because a corporation is based in China doesn’t automatically make it some kind of government managed communist entity.

If you live in the US, it is better for you if the home robots with microphones are controlled by the US than the US' geopolitical rival.
Can you expand on why that’s the case?

Suppose the Chinese gov has access to my robovac data. Given that I reside in the US, how is that worse than ICE having access to my data?

It is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to predict what new information can be derived from the combination of different datasets collected from your devices.

Especially as the N of datasets grows.

Do you think the Chinese government would ever have reasons to "ask the company forcefully" to take pictures and/or record audio inside specific offices and homes?
The broad concern that some people have is misplaced (China doesn't care about the average American home). The narrow concern is extremely plausible: that China would happily use it to target dissidents for example, or people that have fled China for various reasons. We've seen how aggressive they are over time in targeting those people, including physical kidnappings in the US and elsewhere.

The acquisition of iRobot should be immediately blocked on national security concerns. China would have no problem doing the same if the situations were reversed.

Your current device won’t do it but Wi-Fi can now identify people, and because it’s able to penetrate flesh it can identify people by skeleton so that it can’t be hidden by clothing. That’s separate from WhoFi being hard to identify peeler from gestures.[1]

This could be a future where your home devices sell what you look like to data harvesters who can then see you appear in shops which run the same scanners, even through walls where there’s no cameras, connecting back to the person who lives in your house near your future-vacuum cleaner. Even if you leave your phone and devices behind and pay in cash.

The historic privacy we had by virtue of things being physical started to fall slightly with writing and post which the government might intercept, further with telephone calls which the phone company could intercept, further with radio which could be hidden in one room listening, further with CCTV to CRT screen banks and no recording, further to purchases by credit card, then suddenly in the 90s to cellphone tracking and mass internet use, then the 2000s with Bluetooth beacon scanning and CCTV recording to disk and online purchases and unencrypted chat programs, faster in the 2010s where so many people upload their photo streams to Facebook which does face recognition on who is in photos and who is attending events, location tracking apps (all of them asking for that permission), to smartphones tracking location for live traffic and live store busyness ratings, and Hey Siri and Alexa and all the fitness tracker apps, and Ubers and video calling proxies through Microsoft and Google servers, cheap IoT CCTV left open to the world, car license plate tracking cameras…

“What is the concern” - is there really no concern?

[1] https://www.techspot.com/news/109975-wi-fi-can-accurately-id...

What do you mean by "worry a lot about privacy"?

If it is a practical view of privacy, like the "I don't want others to know I have foot fetish" kind, or even typical operational security like not letting others know you own something valuable, then the concern is most likely minor. In fact, it may be a good thing that the data goes to China instead of in your own country, because there is a border somewhat protecting you.

If you take a more general approach of just making less data available about you on the internet, for things like targeted ads, AI, etc... Then US or China shouldn't change much and you should avoid connecting your robot to the internet in the first place, most work without it for the simple "clean" function.

Now if you are a US citizen and a patriot, then yeah, it matters.

I’m curious about this too. I’d worry about a local burglar having this information, but what can a Chinese tech company do with this data that I should be concerned about?
First, just the evergrowing tracking of everything, it's just unwholesome in general.

Second, why assume a random Chinese tech company will manage to keep this information to themselves? I wouldn't exactly bet against some terabytes of videos appear on some torrent indexer. Now, combine with modern AI tools for sifting for what you are interested in, and it might hit closer to home for someone.

>>Second, why assume a random Chinese tech company will manage to keep this information to themselves?

I never assumed American companies kept this data to themselves so nothing has changed in that regard.

What I don't get is why people buy robots that carry microphones, lidars and cameras AND connect to the Internet.

I don't really care if the camera is American or Chinese, I just don't want a camera/mic in my home that I don't control. And yeah, the smartphone counts but it's a lot harder not to have one.

Assuming an efficient market it'll eventually be sold to a local burglar. Also, I imagine ICE might be interested in a list of homes where something besides English was spoken. Also there are those email scams that claim to have video of you doing something embarrassing, but usually don't. Given the trajectory of AI, their claims might start being true.
An employee of that company sells footage of you to a scam center. They then blackmail you.
device on your network is not concerning to you? I'm not going to explain it to you only because I'd like to see the outcome.
I know we have older models for upstairs and down, and saw a newer one with camera at a thrift store. It could have been a different brand, but I saw camera facing up at about 30 degrees and thought to myself, nope. There are reports of it sending revealing pictures I read, and am quite happy that the bump and go ones keep down dust and fur overall. Most of my wifi gadgets have cameras not moving on their own.
... and my floor plan is available online through public records

With that being said, I specifically got a roborock device with only LiDAR and no camera just in case.

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