These feeders are part of a stray cat control program in China, aiming to both feed & neuter stray cat populations there.
There have been some distasteful incidents of online groups organizing to try and harm/kill specific cats famous through this feeder program. China lacks animal welfare laws to protect these cats, it's not a crime. So people have taken to identifying these abusers and reporting them to their employer, university etc. Abusers have been fired and expelled over such cases. Governments overseas whose citizens participate in such online abuse groups need to be doing more. Membership in online animal abuse groups needs to be criminalized.
The US also has basically no animal welfare laws for the vast majority of its animals
hshdhdhj4444
Future generations are gonna look back at us for our treatment of animals, especially farmed animals, much the way we look back at our slave owning ancestors.
And just like we wonder how so many otherwise morally upstanding people participated in such an obviously abhorrent system as human slavery, they will think the same about people in our generation.
Unfortunately, it turns out that social norms are extremely powerful and even recognizing one is acting purely out of those social norms in ways that would be very obviously insanely unethical if looked at even slightly objectively is very difficult.
Imustaskforhelp
I actually agree.
I have said this in another comment but I feel like its up to us. Slavery wasn't eradicated suddenly and became suddenly morally bad, I think that slowly but steadily we got better though till the point that now everyone mostly considers slavery morally evil.
Lets hope the same can be the case with animals as well.
I can't emphasize the impact of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gqwpfEcBjI&t=25s (earthlings documentary) had on me. I am mostly vegan (well aside from some eggs which I also can easily quit), I highly recommend it.
dTal
> aside from some eggs which I also can easily quit
Curious why you don't, then. Factory egg production isn't pretty.
Imustaskforhelp
Well I had eaten last eggs I guess 2-3 months ago when my father kept on insisting it.
Otherwise i had quit it for an year straight or maybe longer, I just didn't want to say I had quit when I recently ate them (and actually I didn't like them thaat much) I rarely used to eat eggs but when they hurt my conscience I stopped eating it and its quite easy and I was never a true egg eater anyway, maybe on rare occasions which I have also stopped now.
So you could say I have quit :) but its always funny having my father explain to me that they are build in factories ,like, its still messy for those poor animals...
aksss
I believe there are more slaves today than ever in the history of the planet simply due to population growth. While everyone WE know thinks slavery is morally evil, most of the world does not hold that view. In fact, I would say the default human view (looking at all cultures across time memorial) is that slavery is the rule not the exception. That doesn't go away with modernity, it goes away with culture.
The pendulum could swing the other way and instead animal rights activists could be looked upon with complete disdain. Just like human rights, progress is never guaranteed.
Imustaskforhelp
> Just like human rights, progress is never guaranteed.
There is a sense of optimism/hope I have in humanity, not in short term, but long term (decades later)
I hope that the pendulum swings in an optimist manner. As a vegetarian who watched earthlings documentary, I recommend it.
I feel like the pendulum depends on all of us. We all gotta be hopeful and hope that other fellow beings also are like us and that gives hope I guess. We can swing the pendulum whatever side and its up to us in some aspect, so we personally need to do the best we can till the limit of our abilities
mlrtime
Dystopian comments are hot right now, but your comment really don't have basis when looking at long periods of time.
We are objectively in a better place now than ever, and that is usually true by picking a time and looking backwards 100+ years.
Isn't it though? To be sure it very much depends on how you measure progress, but I do firmly believe that there is a slow but inexorable push forward in terms of equality, human rights, and various other issues. Yes, there will be hiccups, but we always move forward.
(I don't comment this to imply there's not a lot of work we have to do, or that there's not seriously fucked up things going on right now; but hope - perhaps, even, a bit of faith - is important.)
axus
The difference being that enslaved humans actually were equal and are thriving now, the enslaved animal populations will crash when the farming stops. Though better to die free, than live as a slave.
doganugurlu
Not sure an individual dying and a whole species dying are quite the same thing.
malcolmgreaves
> enslaved humans actually were equal and are thriving now
Not true. Black folk in America are not thriving. The ancestors of the confederates have been working hard for generations.
elif
Yo I've been a vegan for over 30 years and personally I wish that were true, but honestly I don't see groupthink on this topic ever shifting substantially.
Ideology which confirms ones desires are stronger than socially collective cerebralization about theoretical ideals.
I actually think AI will be granted empathy far sooner than animals simply due to its ability to speak and thus engage in the ideological layer.
dudeofea
Cultures that have many offspring usually care less about animal welfare (human and non-human) than those that have less offspring.
Cultures that have many offspring usually become the dominant culture of future generations.
Unless something catastrophic happens, I don't see how you can be right and I can be wrong.
NoNameHaveI
"Future generations are gonna look back at us for our treatment of animals, especially farmed animals, much the way we look back at our slave owning ancestors."
I predict that in the next 100 years, or less, consumption of animal products will be much the same taboo as tobacco consumption (in the USA) is today.
Yes, they will still be around, but if you enjoy them openly, you will be a bit of a social pariah in many circles.
rafark
> Future generations are gonna look back at us for our treatment of animals, especially farmed animals, much the way we look back at our slave owning ancestors.
A lot of people already do.
Hopefully technology (robots) and science (lab grown meat) can accelerate this.
bbarnett
There is an immense difference between factory farming, and traditional farming, of which most countries and places still do.
I don't know what sort of fantasy lifestyle people think wild animals live, but it's constant fear of death all day long, fights with other of its kind over territory, constant predation, disease, pests (including bot flies and worms), starvation during population upswings, dying of thirst during drought, and very short lives.
Compare that with protection from predators, medical care, vaccination, shelter, reliable food and clean water, and stress free lives until a quick and fast death.
Lumping caring farmers in with factory farming is unfair, and again most of the world isn't the US.
For animals such as cows? Peace, contentment, and stress free life is indeed a boon.
Traditional farmers don't install automated cow scratchers for profit. They do it so animals are happy:
> Compare that with protection from predators, medical care, vaccination, shelter, reliable food and clean water, and stress free lives until a quick and fast death.
Comparing farmed animals to wild animals is not really the point. A better comparison is a farmed animal compared to that animal not existing at all. We make the choice to bring them into existence.
Are farmed animals better off existing than not? I think in general the great majority of the 100 billion or so animals we slaughter per year are probably better off not existing. Their lives tend to be short, miserable and pointless.
If you insist on comparing farmed animals to wild animals, though, I don't think it's clear cut. They do live "safer" lives (at least until we kill them, as young as it is economical to do so), but they get to experience severe boredom, curtailment of their natural instincts, and distressing experiences such as separation from their offspring and overcrowding.
In his book Sapiens, Yuval Noah Harari called the farming of animals by humans "Nature's biggest fraud", which I always found to be an apt description.
It makes me wonder if humans are the only animals who "farm" other animals in some way (not on the same scale as humans do of course).
At the same time, it makes me wonder, "is being a parasitic animal socially better or worse than animals who farm fellow animals" ;).
Ants farm aphids and another species of ant farms fungus.
Parasites are ubiquitous in nature and they range from the infamous cuckoo who lays eggs in other birds’ nests to tiny worms that infest the eyes of children to the horrifying tarantula hawk wasp that paralyses a spider and leads it to a burrow and then lays an egg which soon hatches and devours the still-living spider from the inside out!
jhbadger
There are many parasitoid wasps, of which the tarantula hawk wasp is only one. It's an sound evolutionary strategy even if their existence even horrified Charles Darwin (and these wasps were obviously the inspiration for the Xenomorph in the Alien movies)
ethanpailes
Sperm whales arguably farm by always dedicating at the top of the water column and measurably increasing the fertility of the seas they swim in. It seems possible that is deliberate given how much of their time they spend in the depths.
ridiculous_leke
I am with you on principle. But how to get animal protein without harming animals? Can't do milk & related products because of lactose intolerance and other vegetarian sources are not that protein dense.
aziaziazi
Do you need that density though ? Also animals products contains basically 0 fibers and not much water so you also gotta plants anyway to get a fit meal.
Some of the best protein choices:
- quinoa
- tempeh (fermented soy)
- tofu (not much fibers here but many minerals and water)
- brewer's yeast (but in its own, but you can add it on everything, it’s delicious and cheap)
- if you’re into processed stuff (like whey and flours) there’s many’s proteins extracts like peas, soy, beans… also TSP and TPP for cooking convenience.
wingtw
hm, if i understand you correctly (non-native speaker here) you are advocating for plant based diet - and if thats the case, I don't agree with you. It might be possible to live on plant based diet in Mediterranean, but here up north where i reside (and even further in Arctic) it is, I think, next to impossible to survive only on plants - human body, afaik, cannot get everything that is needed in this environment, purely from plants. Taking maybe a very graphic example to get the point across - Eskimos did not learn to hunt whales (which was and is for them very dangerous) for fun but to survive - to counter the cold you need to consume more calories than you can get from (with reasonable amounts of) plants. (of course in arctic, theres whole another issue of growing anything ). Ofc one might say that in today's world everything can be flown in, supplements can be taken - but what's the cost ? to the body, to the environment where the plants/supplements are manufactured...?
katbyte
No just that factory farming animals maybe shouldn’t be allowed. I have no problem with eating free range animals that live outside and are humanly treated and slaughtered even if the price goes up. I do have a problem with animal abuse which factory farming is.
MagicMoonlight
30 million years in and vegans still haven’t won. Why do you expect that to change?
gs17
30 million years of what? Go back a few centuries and you could say the same statement about slavery, since all of civilization is a rounding error on tens of millions of years.
hollerith
You don't know what future generations are going to believe. The evolution of beliefs and norms are much too complicated for any person to predict.
The rhetorical ploy you just tried is only slightly more credible than "I'm a time traveler from the future. Here's what the people of the future think of the people of the present."
scotty79
Very limited number of decades have passed since we considered torturing other humans prime entertainment do the whole family. Give us a minute.
lo_zamoyski
You can find the abuse of animals morally objectionably (I do), but comparing it to human slavery rests on a grossly false moral equivalence between human beings and other animals. Indeed, it usually rests on sentiment or convention rather than a sound and rationally grounded objective ethics.
Chattel slavery was first and foremost morally objectionable, because human beings have rights that conflict with its practice. Rights are rooted in two properties human beings have, namely, the ability to comprehend one's actions and one's situation, and the ability to freely choose between alternatives. If I can understand my actions and I can freely choose to act one way or another, then I am, in principle [1], a moral agent and thus morally responsible for my actions. But for me to be able to fulfill those responsibilities as a moral agent, certain conditions must be met and this claim on others to supply me with those conditions we call rights. Without those conditions, I cannot do what I have a responsibility to do. Non-human animals [2] lack these properties, which is why we do not hold them morally accountable, and because they don't have responsibilities, they do not have rights. (I realize that it has become customary to pull rights out of thin air without the slightest moral scruple or justification about doing so.)
Of course, it would be morally objectionable for us to torment animals, but we are free to make use of animals in ways that do not contract the human good, rightly understood.
[0] The only sound, objective basis for morality is human nature, which determines what actions accord with it and which contradict it. So, it is morally objectionable to torment animals, even though they have no rights, because - in short - it contradicts human nature and thus my good as a human being. Sadism is a serious defect.
[1] I say "in principle", because in practice, as you'll recall, mens rea has legal significance for a reason. If I kill someone by accident, then I did not choose freely to kill him, and so I have not committed murder, only involuntary manslaughter or whatever. If I kill someone, because I believed he was a monster from the 7th dimension trying to kill me, then I did not comprehend my situation and thus the nature of my action. So, in practice, I may fail to exercise what in principle I have the power to do by virtue of my nature as a human being. But other animals do not have this power by nature.
[2] To preempt the inevitable petty drive-by pedant, I define "human" as any animal with these two properties, so according to this view, an intelligent alien from another planet would also be human, despite occupying a place in a separate phylogenetic tree or whatever.
fkyoureadthedoc
> [2] To preempt the inevitable petty drive-by pedant, I define "human" as any animal with these two properties, so according to this view, an intelligent alien from another planet would also be human, despite occupying a place in a separate phylogenetic tree or whatever.
Your alien might have some 3rd property that you do not, and thus may farm you.
A future AI that can produce and consume the sum total of all recorded human knowledge within the amount of time that you have a single thought will likely have many emergent properties that you do not, and thus may farm you as well.
> Indeed, it usually rests on sentiment or convention rather than a sound and rationally grounded objective ethics.
Your whole argument rests on sentiment and convention, and would have been summarily rejected by the slave owner based on his own.
jmdeon
It sounds like you're conflating legal arguments with moral ones.
You're saying animals lack rights so it's morally okay to enslave/make use of them?
I'd argue it's much baser than that. Animals have feelings and often feel very bad when kept in enslaved conditions. Since humans can understand the pain they inflict on enslaved animals, then it's wrong of us to continue enslaving them when we have alternatives that are just as healthy for us, if not more healthy.
I would also say your assumption that pigs do not comprehend their actions and cannot choose between alternatives is false.
FridayoLeary(dead)
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unnamed76ri(dead)
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malcolmgreaves
> Future generations are gonna look back at us for our treatment of animals, especially farmed animals, much the way we look back at our slave owning ancestors.
Absolutely not.
People are so much more important than pigs.
Or dogs. Or any other animal.
This isn’t a comparison a rational, empathetic person would make.
MyOutfitIsVague
Most rational, empathetic people generally look down on animal abuse and animal torture. Humans are more important than any other animal to me, but it's not a total dichotomy that makes the suffering of all other thinking, feeling animals meaningless.
Very few rational, empathetic people would be entirely unmoved by their pet dog being killed, and are more than a little perturbed imagining farming dogs for meat like we do other animals, despite the fact that cows and pigs do have feelings, do suffer, do play and have social bonds, and do have similar levels of intelligence to dogs.
We're fortunate enough that we only have one species of human around to worry about. Imagine the political turmoil if we still had many different human species in modern society and had to deal with this kind of debate.
ultrarunner
It's already happening. A story about mistreatment of a dog garners reactions like "how can someone act like that to a fur-baby". Same action toward a person and it's elided over as baseline expected violence. By the same token, quasi-deification of animals has happened for a very long time, and all it takes is a mutation of this idea to spread across popular culture.
Thorrez
People have been charged/convicted of torturing chickens:
I believe the difference is if you're causing the animals pain because you enjoy the pain itself vs causing the animals pain to provide food.
aziaziazi
Those convictions are extremely rare though. France even made illegal to fact to denounce such (illegal too) acts if this denunciation could harm the farmer.
Cats were traditionally used for pest control, their main value being their living activity, and these days mostly bred to be cute house companions.
Pigs otoh were traditionally used as a protein source, their main value being their well fed carcass, and today still bred mainly to produce delicious bacon.
I think most people neither wish cats, pigs, or any other animal cruel treatment, and that goes for non-vegetarians as well. I do agree most unsavory maltreatment practices do not get the attention they deserve.
dspillett
> the difference in how we see cats and pigs
Even before we bred much larger pigs, there was far more meat on them, and they were far easier to corral. It comes down to those efficiencies rather than any moralising about the intelligence and awareness of the animals.
As an animal lover, particularly cats, and active member of People Eating Tasty Animals, I don't have a problem with cultures that eat animals we consider pets, as I know the pigs and cows I eat are more intelligent than many are comfortable thinking. My concern is how the animals are treated before being food which comes down to the factory farming debate and similar: a life of torture before being eaten compared to a life of care before being eaten.
grumpy-de-sre
I suspect concerns about the impacts on agriculture are a big part of the reason why the Chinese authorities haven't clamped down on this stuff yet.
I am 100% against mistreating any animals and especially animals as intelligent as pigs.
However, I can understand why people don't think of pigs as highly as cats & dogs considering how dirty they are. I don't mean the rolling around in mud thing; that's just a logical way to cool off. Instead I mean the fact that they will apparently eat almost anything including feces and other pigs.
Edit: Just to be clear, I realize that's not a rational reason to think poorly of pigs. I'm just saying that I can understand why people feel that way.
ricardobeat
Don’t worry, if cats tasted good they would be receiving the same treatment!
The amount of cruel farming practices, chemicals, unsustainable methods etc that the US uses while being forbidden in the rest of the world is inexcusable.
esperent
> if cats tasted good
How do you know they don't?
By all accounts dogs taste good, but there's only a small number of cultures that eat them.
But I think eating someone doesn't need to imply causing them as much suffering as our current farming practices do
makeitdouble
They probably don't taste bad...I mean, most animals somewhat taste good (crocodiles, frogs, hogs, deers, pigeons, eels etc). Now, it would be utterly ineffective to try to breed cats for meat, which is IMHO why we have such a small variety of regular meat. We chose the species that were the most convenient, regardless of any other inherent ethical consideration.
So for better or worse the line is purely arbitrary, and people's pet pig being off-limit by virtue of being declared a pet is an example of that.
mlrtime
I bet you if you haven't eaten in 3 days the cat would taste pretty good to you too.
I'm partially kidding, but we are afforded to have these discussions in the comfort in our home when we have an abundance of food around us available 24/7. (Speaking of mostly of developed nations)
petesergeant
> Don’t worry, if cats tasted good they would be receiving the same treatment!
I don't think that's true: dog meat isn't widely eaten, but enough countries do eat it to suggest it's palatable.
isoprophlex
Expensive to breed carnivorous animals though. Chickens, cows, etc. you can directly raise on cheap vegetable matter.
unnamed76ri
I used to work in the pet industry and an oft cited statistic was that 1,000,000 cats and dogs are euthanized every year in the US. It would never happen for cultural reasons but, it seems like China could be a booming market for selling these animals as meat instead of letting it all go to waste.
Knowing this, is there are a reason why you Aren't vegan?
harimau777
Not the OP, but:
I try to minimize the amount of meat that I eat; however, at this time I don't think that veganism is a viable strategy for optimal health for most Americans. That's particularly the case for athletes. It's simply too difficult to get enough protein and minimize carbs on a plant based diet.
That's not to say that it's impossible. I have a friend who is a vegan bodybuilder but it requires a lot of extra work on her part. That extra work is a big ask for people who are just trying to hold their lives together.
Zooming out from food, there isn't a widely available alternative to leather or wool if you care about the textile's performance (strength, durability, insulation when wet, flame retardation, etc.). That's particularly true if you care about avoiding petrochemicals.
aziaziazi
> get enough protein and minimize carbs on a plant based diet.
Tempeh, tofu, quinoa, mushrooms just to cite a few. Also a good portions of the carbs in vegetable are fibers and those not only don’t get digested but also help your microbiote to stay healthy.
Moreover the high protein/carbs ratio you’re talking about isn’t about Americans but about a sport nutrition trends aiming to optimise muscle buildup. I’m not sure what extra work your friends do but all bodybuilders have to put work in gym time and meal prep. Eating a quinoa shake isn’t harder than a whey one.
ultrarunner
What athletics do you participate in, and what are your macro targets?
wetpaws(dead)
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Wowfunhappy
"Membership" in anything should never be criminalized—that's freedom of association. Animal abuse should be criminalized.
Llamamoe
You have a point but we are literally talking about an association whose entire and only raison d'etre is to perpetuate violent crime. Maybe it shouldn't be outright criminal, since people can potentially register for other reasons than to participate, but it definitely should at least be under scrutiny.
ricardobeat
I don’t mean to defend people joining groups committing any kind of violence, but this is the kind of rhetoric being used by the far-right against their opponents, not only in the US; it is a terrible idea to allow policing based on “assumed intent”.
the_other
It's the same direction of travel as recent UK laws allowing police to stop people preparing to join protests if they think the accused might be planning to e.g. glue themselves to something.
IMO this is basically policing thought crimes. It worries me.
Llamamoe
Rhetoric can be used to justify any action against any group on very arbitrary pretenses, and while I don't think "groups whose primary reason for existing is explicitly to facilitate crime should be closely scrutinized" is particularly dystopian, you're probably right that it could provide a good starting point for a slippery slope of criminalising association with political opposition :/
Xelbair
The same reasoning could be used against civil rights movement.
That's why we don't do that, if our systems are functioning fine.
hnbad
Could be? You should look into the history of the Black Panthers. The US government doesn't need to make membership illegal to suppress and destroy political movements.
omcnoe
We essentially criminalize membership in other kinds of criminal groups centered around producing and sharing illegal content, the same should apply to animal abuse.
hshdhdhehd
Yeah but do you need to criminalise membership, or does things like conspiracy, accomplace etc. cover it.
SiempreViernes
Membership in an organisation can be conclusive evidence you joined a criminal enterprise/criminal conspiracy, making the the entire debate somewhat moot.
But fine, only joining the criminal conspiracy is illegal, being a member can be legal (you always have to join to become a member).
speed_spread
You'll get slander cases of people receiving membership they never applied for. Having your name on some list should never be a crime in itself.
KolibriFly
The focus should absolutely be on actions, not associations
awesome_dude
Tell that to the members of organisations deemed to be terrorists
cromka
Like the "ANTIFA"?
braebo
It’s scary seeing the president call me a terrorist for opposing fascism.
hshdhdhehd
Almost every freedom needs exceptions. Better to have freedom in general plus exceptions than no freedom at all. Free speech except yelling fire in the cinema etc.
timeon
Ok so add this to these "exceptions".
hshdhdhehd
I think with conspiracy you dont need to be that specific. Any crime you do as a group is a crime.
berkes
I'm halfway up in middle management of the terrorist company called Antifa, career aiming at C level in 6 years (wink wink).
actionfromafar
How's the health insurance? You got dental?
StopDisinfo910
> "Membership" in anything should never be criminalized
Conspiracy is the criminalisation of association to commit a crime. Fredom of association doesn't magically mean you won't face consequences for what your association is about.
Starlevel004
We must secure the existence of animal abuse groups and a future for free association.
hnbad
Membership in an anti-constitutional organization is a crime under German law btw and I'm pretty sure there are other countries with similar laws. The US does criminalize membership but only as an add-on to other charges (co-conspiracy, basically). Of course in the US this is mostly for going after "gangs" so it's almost exclusively used against Black people.
layer8
Regarding Germany, that’s inaccurate. It’s a crime only if you wilfully (not just out of negligence) provide support for an organization after it has been prohibited. Membership is neither necessary nor sufficient for that. It’s what you actually do for the organization once it’s prohibited that counts.
mlrtime
Only black people are in gangs? What about organized crime, would that be only black people? Your comment was insightful up till the end when you had to make it about race, which it isn't.
modo_mario
>China lacks animal welfare laws to protect these cats
Does it?
I remember a lot of outrage on reddit about people that would supposedly be banned from having pets due to low social credit score.
Turns out the article was a complete lie and there was just a law introduced that made banning someone from having pets for a specified time a punishment that could be dished out. Specifically in the case of someone convicted for animal abuse.
rsynnott
That's a fairly weak punishment, tho.
none2585
Tangential but related - shout-out to nodogsleftbehind.com which is a nonprofit designed to save dogs from cruel treatment and the meat market in China.
throawayonthe
are there places where it's illegal to kill cats? i know there are cruelty laws, but afaik in most places you are allowed to kill animals "humanely"
hnbad
If you want to be this pedantic, killing humans is technically legal in every country that has soldiers and law enforcement officers.
throawayonthe
i do mean by civillians
ocean117
其实还好，这是极端个例，在中国都上不了几次新闻的那种，中国的绝育计划大多是民间宠物店或者宠物医院推动的，你可以从中国的抖音看着，官方除了几个发达城市直接不管，所以中国有着世界上最高的流浪猫狗群体，以及传播范围最广的狂犬病和最高的狂犬病疫苗滥用率，在这里甚至你被家养兔子咬了医生都会建议你使用血清。
In fact, fortunately, this is an extreme case, in China can not be on the news several times, China's sterilization program is mostly promoted by private pet stores or pet hospitals, you can watch from China's Douyin, the official except for a few developed cities directly ignore, so China has the highest stray cat and dog group in the world, as well as the most widespread rabies and the highest rabies vaccine abuse rate, here even if you are bitten by a domestic rabbit, the doctor will advise you to use serum.
moron4hire
I was confused by how that might be possible, because I first assumed this would have been something like how the SPCA or animal rescue shelters work in the US, where there would be a central location where the animals are handled and processed. But I'm getting the impression that these are automated boxes that are placed in-situ in cities?
varispeed
If they neuter all stray cats, they will end up with no cats. Then they'll end up with mice.
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Kichererbsen
Sometimes cats just get lost: The go on a walk-about and can't find the way home. I have a hunch that's more common than animal abuse. How does your system address that?
awesome_dude
I was thinking about all the stories of people moving homes, and their pets escaping to return to the place they just left, sometimes across continents
PatronBernard
Also prison!!!
throw9394948(dead)
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npteljes
So to throw me to prison, all one needs to do is break in, and let my cat loose.
Also, abandonment is just a minuscule part of human animal abuse.
throw9394948(dead)
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munchlax
You have no idea how much F*s a cat gives.
You don't even have to feed my cat for it to like you. Any human attention at all and the engine runs.
Thank you; I tried to find an “about” link but couldn’t.
ascorbic
There's one in the bottom left, but there's not much detail so I did some googling
torarnv
This seems like a good initiative, but makes me wonder, isn't there a risk these cats will end up overeating when endless Internet-people click the feed-button?
RobotToaster
Cats generally don't overeat like dogs do.
braebo
My cat would literally pop if he could eat as much as he wanted :(
ooterness
It depends on the cat. Some will self-regulate, others will not.
GreenWatermelon
The "oh lawd he comin"[0] meme is popular precisely because cat tend to over eat.
A vet once told me that male orange cats can become food-obsessed, and my entire experience with cats agrees with that. One orange male that needs to be food restricted, while every other cat I know doesn't.
moffkalast
> Stupid Idiot is a now adopted cat, named after the markings on his face
I'm glad for Mr. Stupid Idiot :D
thrance
Apparently he's named idiot because his moustache markings resemble the chinese character for "idiot", and stupid because he once flooded his feeder with the water bottle, somehow.
tiagod
Flipped to the second camera, and there's a hedgehog eating all the food!
One I went to had a flock of magpies taking turns eating cat food. Different crowd during the day I guess.
Edd314159
The Purrrr app (which shows feeders like this) is really quite an experience. It’s just as hyperactive as a Temu or AliExpress, with as much dopamine hacking as a TikTok, but… for good? I think?
catlover13000
hello from the community! happy canteen gets a lot of food so if you want to donate i recommend checking out the less popular feeders. it is the most popular because mr fresh the meme cat who was adopted originated from there.
for those worried about the kitties every feeder has a different caretaker and some are more involved than others. from what ive seen a majority of the popular ones have either a dedicated caretaker or are involved with some business. unfortunately, you may come across feeders where the cats arent as cared for or where the caretaker lacks the funds to do so. to help with this the purrr app (where english speaking users can feed them) has a fund option where instead of feeding, you can support TNR or wellness treatments!
catlover13000
i forgot to mention these feeders just began entering the U.S. this year. there are several located in shelters and have helped many homeless cats find owners! hopefully they will continue to spread and help in communities that have stray cat problems
thr0w__4w4y
I noticed all the feeders seem to be similar / same. I'm in California, I feed 3 strays in an area where the average outdoor cat's lifespan is about 4.5 years (fires, traffic, hawks, coyotes, evil people).
Right now my process is very manual but it's a labor of love. All 3 cats only show up after dark. Ring stick up camera, bowls out (clean them every day), run out on a motion alert, etc. problem is I also have racoons, opposssums and skunks. (I'm not in L.A. highrises, I'm close to the ocean).
Where can such feeders now be purchased (US customer). Thank you!
Implicated
Similarly, I've got 7 regulars and 4 to 5 more occasional visitors that I've been feeding and fixing (11 of them fixed so far) but there's issues with racoons and opossums - pretty sure they stole a whole litter, they taint the water and eat any food available.
My plan is something similar to this feed the cats thing - except, a twitch live stream of an fpv water turret in which they can "deter" those unwanted visitors.
catlover13000
dont quote me on this but also there are 2 documented feeder types and i believe the second one, the shelter feeder, is the one that came to the U.S. the purrrr owners are very kind and will probably give you information though or at least a date for when they might become more widely available. contact info here https://www.hipurrrr.com/
catlover13000
I am not sure. You could contact the owners of the english translated app and they might be able to help. Their information is on their website https://www.hipurrrr.com/
eknkc
This seems like a great program!
Small anectode;
My wife runs a cafe in Ankara, Turkey. A week after opening a random cat walked in and claimed one of the chairs.
We started feeding him. Then another walked in... We left a large automated feeder outside and started spaying / neutering, vaccinating, deworming them. I think we neutered close to 20-30 cats. A couple needed medical intervention (broken limbs, infections etc). And 2 I had to put down because they were too far gone. This effort alone put the neighborhood kitten population in control.
The place was aimed at health conscious / vegan people so the theme fit with cats hanging around.
It is really emotionally and financially draining to do these things. I've been fortunate enough to fund everything myself but I assume it is hard when scale grows larger and there is not enough help.
I saw a slug eating in another feeder, but I feel like a little sprinkle of salt around the lower perimeter outside the base would deter them.
abetancort(dead)
[dead]
lazycatjumping
We need a remote-petting-arm so we can pet the cat'berts over long distance lines.
Also a microphone for receiving feedback.
berkes
Or just walk over to the local cat rescue?
Not every problem needs a technical, internet connected solution Some problems are easily solved with "just going out of the door and spending some time" (which, I know, is not a very HN answer, but well)
hshdhdhehd
Hey Cat as a Service (we meow not concatenate) is a fine idea
NoiseBert69
I have already patented SaaS. Sheep as a Service.
WesolyKubeczek
Touch Grass as a Service?
FireInsight
We need a remote-grass-touching-arm so we can touch grass over long distance lines.
berkes
But how can this "remote-grass-touching-arm" push the "smell" and "tactile" back to the user? Is there an open spec for this? It should certainly be P2P and E2E encrypted. Also "smells" should ensure not to use patented or proprietary names.
Maybe some CSmS, Cascading Smell Sheets? Or TFP, Tactile Feedback Protocol, the one that uses JWT and JSON over HTTP2 and websockets?
blitzar
and a remote foot for the feet people
Cthulhu_
I just opened one up, two cats were waiting patiently, food came out, one cat hissed at the other and started eating. Very cat.
magzter
Well I certainly got sucked in by some cats staring at the camera with an empty bowl, got me buying them kibble.
MarsIronPI
This is brilliant marketing. Buy food for the hungry cat! Whoever came up with this idea is genius.
Love this! Relatedly, does anyone have a suggestion for an outdoor solar-powered web camera that I could point at the critters in my garden? I'd love to stream a MonarchCam or MantisCam some day.
TheChaplain
Reolink have one.
Used Reolink ages ago for home surveillance and it worked well then.
So this is like that fish camera thing where humans would identify when the fish ladder gate needed to be opened to let fish through, but this time it's for feeding stray kitties?
Or maybe there's no human interaction? I don't have the Purrr app.
thenthenthen
WOW this is amazing! There are many of these ‘smart kitty houses’ in my Shanghai neighbourhood!
harimau777
In one of the feeds (Mr. Fall) the cat is eating what looks like soap shavings or feathers or something. They apprear to be fairly light weight since the cat appears to be sort of licking them up. Any idea what they are?
IAmBroom
Dehydrated chicken?
xrd
How is this surviving the HN hug of death?
Why is this not bigger than skibidi toilet? I have three kids, two girls and one boy. My son loves skibidi toilet, but my girls outnumber him and they've NEVER told me about this.
minihoot
Because skibidi toilet is extremely stimulating and has stuff happening 24/7. This just has cats eating food. (which personally as an autistic person makes me bounce in my seat)
blamazon
GIFs or screenshots from this are ubiquitous in meme culture in areas of the net I frequent. There's one I'm thinking of where the cat looks suspiciously at the camera.
MarsIronPI
Might we know what these areas are?
catlover13000
believe it or not there was a massive surge in popularity in 2024 when mr fresh still visited the happy canteen so they had time to prepare lol.
jarek83
POV: A bird's last view before being eaten by them
MarsIronPI
Cool project! The post title is not at all clear though. Maybe it could be clarified?
williamharwell
Mr. Sweetpea has ants in his food.
tantomile
this is what the internet is for.
nullable_bool
Lucky 7-Eleven II is one weirrrrdd looking cat.
heywoods
I don’t know why I expected anything else with that url.
ge96
Ahhh history back button but love it
RRRA
Jenny Cam has evolved so much
virajk_31
This is Meowlsome!! haha
chakintosh
hehe Catroulette
tommica
Now this is pure internet gold.
thenthenthen
*purr internet gold
ahoka
Gold? It's depressing.
qbit42
Why? They're providing food for stray cats.
AfterHIA
What is going on good cats! Mah kittahs; you are some good ass men I am thinking. :3
There have been some distasteful incidents of online groups organizing to try and harm/kill specific cats famous through this feeder program. China lacks animal welfare laws to protect these cats, it's not a crime. So people have taken to identifying these abusers and reporting them to their employer, university etc. Abusers have been fired and expelled over such cases. Governments overseas whose citizens participate in such online abuse groups need to be doing more. Membership in online animal abuse groups needs to be criminalized.
https://www.ted.com/talks/lewis_bollard_how_to_end_factory_f...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_molting
The US also has basically no animal welfare laws for the vast majority of its animals
And just like we wonder how so many otherwise morally upstanding people participated in such an obviously abhorrent system as human slavery, they will think the same about people in our generation.
Unfortunately, it turns out that social norms are extremely powerful and even recognizing one is acting purely out of those social norms in ways that would be very obviously insanely unethical if looked at even slightly objectively is very difficult.
I have said this in another comment but I feel like its up to us. Slavery wasn't eradicated suddenly and became suddenly morally bad, I think that slowly but steadily we got better though till the point that now everyone mostly considers slavery morally evil.
Lets hope the same can be the case with animals as well.
I can't emphasize the impact of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gqwpfEcBjI&t=25s (earthlings documentary) had on me. I am mostly vegan (well aside from some eggs which I also can easily quit), I highly recommend it.
Curious why you don't, then. Factory egg production isn't pretty.
Otherwise i had quit it for an year straight or maybe longer, I just didn't want to say I had quit when I recently ate them (and actually I didn't like them thaat much) I rarely used to eat eggs but when they hurt my conscience I stopped eating it and its quite easy and I was never a true egg eater anyway, maybe on rare occasions which I have also stopped now.
So you could say I have quit :) but its always funny having my father explain to me that they are build in factories ,like, its still messy for those poor animals...
There is a sense of optimism/hope I have in humanity, not in short term, but long term (decades later)
I hope that the pendulum swings in an optimist manner. As a vegetarian who watched earthlings documentary, I recommend it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gqwpfEcBjI&t=25s
I feel like the pendulum depends on all of us. We all gotta be hopeful and hope that other fellow beings also are like us and that gives hope I guess. We can swing the pendulum whatever side and its up to us in some aspect, so we personally need to do the best we can till the limit of our abilities
We are objectively in a better place now than ever, and that is usually true by picking a time and looking backwards 100+ years.
(I don't comment this to imply there's not a lot of work we have to do, or that there's not seriously fucked up things going on right now; but hope - perhaps, even, a bit of faith - is important.)
Not true. Black folk in America are not thriving. The ancestors of the confederates have been working hard for generations.
Ideology which confirms ones desires are stronger than socially collective cerebralization about theoretical ideals.
I actually think AI will be granted empathy far sooner than animals simply due to its ability to speak and thus engage in the ideological layer.
Cultures that have many offspring usually become the dominant culture of future generations.
Unless something catastrophic happens, I don't see how you can be right and I can be wrong.
A lot of people already do.
Hopefully technology (robots) and science (lab grown meat) can accelerate this.
I don't know what sort of fantasy lifestyle people think wild animals live, but it's constant fear of death all day long, fights with other of its kind over territory, constant predation, disease, pests (including bot flies and worms), starvation during population upswings, dying of thirst during drought, and very short lives.
Compare that with protection from predators, medical care, vaccination, shelter, reliable food and clean water, and stress free lives until a quick and fast death.
Lumping caring farmers in with factory farming is unfair, and again most of the world isn't the US.
For animals such as cows? Peace, contentment, and stress free life is indeed a boon.
Traditional farmers don't install automated cow scratchers for profit. They do it so animals are happy:
https://m.youtube.com/shorts/h3SG72cKA9o
I agree that cows are an exception and live decent lives, but >95% of pigs, chickens, and fish are farmed in atrocious conditions, inside and outside the US: https://ourworldindata.org/how-many-animals-are-factory-farm...
Comparing farmed animals to wild animals is not really the point. A better comparison is a farmed animal compared to that animal not existing at all. We make the choice to bring them into existence.
Are farmed animals better off existing than not? I think in general the great majority of the 100 billion or so animals we slaughter per year are probably better off not existing. Their lives tend to be short, miserable and pointless.
If you insist on comparing farmed animals to wild animals, though, I don't think it's clear cut. They do live "safer" lives (at least until we kill them, as young as it is economical to do so), but they get to experience severe boredom, curtailment of their natural instincts, and distressing experiences such as separation from their offspring and overcrowding.
It makes me wonder if humans are the only animals who "farm" other animals in some way (not on the same scale as humans do of course).
At the same time, it makes me wonder, "is being a parasitic animal socially better or worse than animals who farm fellow animals" ;).
Parasites are ubiquitous in nature and they range from the infamous cuckoo who lays eggs in other birds’ nests to tiny worms that infest the eyes of children to the horrifying tarantula hawk wasp that paralyses a spider and leads it to a burrow and then lays an egg which soon hatches and devours the still-living spider from the inside out!
Some of the best protein choices: - quinoa - tempeh (fermented soy) - tofu (not much fibers here but many minerals and water) - brewer's yeast (but in its own, but you can add it on everything, it’s delicious and cheap) - if you’re into processed stuff (like whey and flours) there’s many’s proteins extracts like peas, soy, beans… also TSP and TPP for cooking convenience.
The rhetorical ploy you just tried is only slightly more credible than "I'm a time traveler from the future. Here's what the people of the future think of the people of the present."
Chattel slavery was first and foremost morally objectionable, because human beings have rights that conflict with its practice. Rights are rooted in two properties human beings have, namely, the ability to comprehend one's actions and one's situation, and the ability to freely choose between alternatives. If I can understand my actions and I can freely choose to act one way or another, then I am, in principle [1], a moral agent and thus morally responsible for my actions. But for me to be able to fulfill those responsibilities as a moral agent, certain conditions must be met and this claim on others to supply me with those conditions we call rights. Without those conditions, I cannot do what I have a responsibility to do. Non-human animals [2] lack these properties, which is why we do not hold them morally accountable, and because they don't have responsibilities, they do not have rights. (I realize that it has become customary to pull rights out of thin air without the slightest moral scruple or justification about doing so.)
Of course, it would be morally objectionable for us to torment animals, but we are free to make use of animals in ways that do not contract the human good, rightly understood.
[0] The only sound, objective basis for morality is human nature, which determines what actions accord with it and which contradict it. So, it is morally objectionable to torment animals, even though they have no rights, because - in short - it contradicts human nature and thus my good as a human being. Sadism is a serious defect.
[1] I say "in principle", because in practice, as you'll recall, mens rea has legal significance for a reason. If I kill someone by accident, then I did not choose freely to kill him, and so I have not committed murder, only involuntary manslaughter or whatever. If I kill someone, because I believed he was a monster from the 7th dimension trying to kill me, then I did not comprehend my situation and thus the nature of my action. So, in practice, I may fail to exercise what in principle I have the power to do by virtue of my nature as a human being. But other animals do not have this power by nature.
[2] To preempt the inevitable petty drive-by pedant, I define "human" as any animal with these two properties, so according to this view, an intelligent alien from another planet would also be human, despite occupying a place in a separate phylogenetic tree or whatever.
Your alien might have some 3rd property that you do not, and thus may farm you.
A future AI that can produce and consume the sum total of all recorded human knowledge within the amount of time that you have a single thought will likely have many emergent properties that you do not, and thus may farm you as well.
> Indeed, it usually rests on sentiment or convention rather than a sound and rationally grounded objective ethics.
Your whole argument rests on sentiment and convention, and would have been summarily rejected by the slave owner based on his own.
I'd argue it's much baser than that. Animals have feelings and often feel very bad when kept in enslaved conditions. Since humans can understand the pain they inflict on enslaved animals, then it's wrong of us to continue enslaving them when we have alternatives that are just as healthy for us, if not more healthy.
I would also say your assumption that pigs do not comprehend their actions and cannot choose between alternatives is false.
Absolutely not.
People are so much more important than pigs. Or dogs. Or any other animal.
This isn’t a comparison a rational, empathetic person would make.
Very few rational, empathetic people would be entirely unmoved by their pet dog being killed, and are more than a little perturbed imagining farming dogs for meat like we do other animals, despite the fact that cows and pigs do have feelings, do suffer, do play and have social bonds, and do have similar levels of intelligence to dogs.
We're fortunate enough that we only have one species of human around to worry about. Imagine the political turmoil if we still had many different human species in modern society and had to deal with this kind of debate.
https://whyy.org/articles/upper-darby-pennsylvania-sentenced...
https://www.wave3.com/2023/04/25/man-accused-abusing-chicken...
I believe the difference is if you're causing the animals pain because you enjoy the pain itself vs causing the animals pain to provide food.
https://welfarm.fr/adoption-de-lamendement-le-fur-une-attaqu...
Cats were traditionally used for pest control, their main value being their living activity, and these days mostly bred to be cute house companions. Pigs otoh were traditionally used as a protein source, their main value being their well fed carcass, and today still bred mainly to produce delicious bacon.
I think most people neither wish cats, pigs, or any other animal cruel treatment, and that goes for non-vegetarians as well. I do agree most unsavory maltreatment practices do not get the attention they deserve.
Even before we bred much larger pigs, there was far more meat on them, and they were far easier to corral. It comes down to those efficiencies rather than any moralising about the intelligence and awareness of the animals.
As an animal lover, particularly cats, and active member of People Eating Tasty Animals, I don't have a problem with cultures that eat animals we consider pets, as I know the pigs and cows I eat are more intelligent than many are comfortable thinking. My concern is how the animals are treated before being food which comes down to the factory farming debate and similar: a life of torture before being eaten compared to a life of care before being eaten.
However, I can understand why people don't think of pigs as highly as cats & dogs considering how dirty they are. I don't mean the rolling around in mud thing; that's just a logical way to cool off. Instead I mean the fact that they will apparently eat almost anything including feces and other pigs.
Edit: Just to be clear, I realize that's not a rational reason to think poorly of pigs. I'm just saying that I can understand why people feel that way.
The amount of cruel farming practices, chemicals, unsustainable methods etc that the US uses while being forbidden in the rest of the world is inexcusable.
How do you know they don't?
By all accounts dogs taste good, but there's only a small number of cultures that eat them.
But I think eating someone doesn't need to imply causing them as much suffering as our current farming practices do
So for better or worse the line is purely arbitrary, and people's pet pig being off-limit by virtue of being declared a pet is an example of that.
I'm partially kidding, but we are afforded to have these discussions in the comfort in our home when we have an abundance of food around us available 24/7. (Speaking of mostly of developed nations)
I don't think that's true: dog meat isn't widely eaten, but enough countries do eat it to suggest it's palatable.
I try to minimize the amount of meat that I eat; however, at this time I don't think that veganism is a viable strategy for optimal health for most Americans. That's particularly the case for athletes. It's simply too difficult to get enough protein and minimize carbs on a plant based diet.
That's not to say that it's impossible. I have a friend who is a vegan bodybuilder but it requires a lot of extra work on her part. That extra work is a big ask for people who are just trying to hold their lives together.
Zooming out from food, there isn't a widely available alternative to leather or wool if you care about the textile's performance (strength, durability, insulation when wet, flame retardation, etc.). That's particularly true if you care about avoiding petrochemicals.
Tempeh, tofu, quinoa, mushrooms just to cite a few. Also a good portions of the carbs in vegetable are fibers and those not only don’t get digested but also help your microbiote to stay healthy.
Moreover the high protein/carbs ratio you’re talking about isn’t about Americans but about a sport nutrition trends aiming to optimise muscle buildup. I’m not sure what extra work your friends do but all bodybuilders have to put work in gym time and meal prep. Eating a quinoa shake isn’t harder than a whey one.
IMO this is basically policing thought crimes. It worries me.
That's why we don't do that, if our systems are functioning fine.
But fine, only joining the criminal conspiracy is illegal, being a member can be legal (you always have to join to become a member).
Conspiracy is the criminalisation of association to commit a crime. Fredom of association doesn't magically mean you won't face consequences for what your association is about.
Does it? I remember a lot of outrage on reddit about people that would supposedly be banned from having pets due to low social credit score. Turns out the article was a complete lie and there was just a law introduced that made banning someone from having pets for a specified time a punishment that could be dished out. Specifically in the case of someone convicted for animal abuse.
Also, abandonment is just a minuscule part of human animal abuse.
You don't even have to feed my cat for it to like you. Any human attention at all and the engine runs.
I would love a public registry of people who have been cruel to animals with a photograph of each person.
Specially, details of the actual feeders: https://streetcat.wiki/index.php/Stray_Cat_Feeders
[0] https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/chonk-oh-lawd-he-comin
I'm glad for Mr. Stupid Idiot :D
https://imgur.com/MIcjP4a
EDIT: And now, what appears to be a Siberian weasel?
https://imgur.com/3oZpZpK
for those worried about the kitties every feeder has a different caretaker and some are more involved than others. from what ive seen a majority of the popular ones have either a dedicated caretaker or are involved with some business. unfortunately, you may come across feeders where the cats arent as cared for or where the caretaker lacks the funds to do so. to help with this the purrr app (where english speaking users can feed them) has a fund option where instead of feeding, you can support TNR or wellness treatments!
Right now my process is very manual but it's a labor of love. All 3 cats only show up after dark. Ring stick up camera, bowls out (clean them every day), run out on a motion alert, etc. problem is I also have racoons, opposssums and skunks. (I'm not in L.A. highrises, I'm close to the ocean).
Where can such feeders now be purchased (US customer). Thank you!
My plan is something similar to this feed the cats thing - except, a twitch live stream of an fpv water turret in which they can "deter" those unwanted visitors.
Small anectode;
My wife runs a cafe in Ankara, Turkey. A week after opening a random cat walked in and claimed one of the chairs.
We started feeding him. Then another walked in... We left a large automated feeder outside and started spaying / neutering, vaccinating, deworming them. I think we neutered close to 20-30 cats. A couple needed medical intervention (broken limbs, infections etc). And 2 I had to put down because they were too far gone. This effort alone put the neighborhood kitten population in control.
The place was aimed at health conscious / vegan people so the theme fit with cats hanging around.
It is really emotionally and financially draining to do these things. I've been fortunate enough to fund everything myself but I assume it is hard when scale grows larger and there is not enough help.
Also a microphone for receiving feedback.
Not every problem needs a technical, internet connected solution Some problems are easily solved with "just going out of the door and spending some time" (which, I know, is not a very HN answer, but well)
Maybe some CSmS, Cascading Smell Sheets? Or TFP, Tactile Feedback Protocol, the one that uses JWT and JSON over HTTP2 and websockets?
Good start to the morning.
They get a ton of donations of food and toys so it seems to work out well.
Used Reolink ages ago for home surveillance and it worked well then.
Or maybe there's no human interaction? I don't have the Purrr app.
Why is this not bigger than skibidi toilet? I have three kids, two girls and one boy. My son loves skibidi toilet, but my girls outnumber him and they've NEVER told me about this.