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mtlynch
Very excited to see Fly restart development on Litestream after a 2ish year freeze!

I love Litestream and use it in every app I build now.

They advertise it as costing "pennies per day," but it's even less expensive than that. It obviously varies depending on how much storage you need, but I had a real app in production, and Litestream replication to S3 only cost me 2-3 cents ($0.02-$0.03) per month.[0]

[0] https://mtlynch.io/litestream/#using-logpaste-in-production

bradgessler
The DX for deploying SQLite apps to Fly.io is rough. I'm a few hours into trying to get a production Rails app booting, but running into issues getting the database to initialize, migrate, and become writable. The root of my problem was the eager loading of a gem I wrote, but there were several layers of runners above it that made it hard to diagnose.

I wish they'd put a bit more effort into the DX here, but it probably doesn't make much sense from a biz PoV since big customers aren't going to be running these kinds workloads.

Curious if anybody here is deploying SQLite apps to production and what host they're using?

dangoodmanUT
The DX for deploying apps to Fly.io is rough.

Every time I deploy something, it spins up 2 instances that are in some suspended state. I have to restart them like 3 times before they actually boot? And why can I never just pick one instance when launching an app.

Apps will randomly go into a suspended state, without explaining why. Contacting support says they ran out of capacity, but didn't automatically start them back when capacity was available?! That's the whole point of Apps (vs Machines), you keep my app running...

Fly is set up to be the best compute provider, but there are too many reliability and ergonomics issues.

Please stop updating flyctl every time i go to deploy an app

mtlynch
>The DX for deploying SQLite apps to Fly.io is rough. I'm a few hours into trying to get a production Rails app booting, but running into issues getting the database to initialize, migrate, and become writable. The root of my problem was the eager loading of a gem I wrote, but there were several layers of runners above it that made it hard to diagnose.

What's the Fly.io issue here? Aren't the issues you're describing in Rails not Fly.io?

I run several Go apps in production on Fly.io[0, 1, 2] and I've never had an issue with the Fly.io + SQLite part of it.

SQLite + Litestream makes things slightly more complicated, but again, I've never had issues with Fly.io specifically making that harder. I use a custom launch script in my Dockerfile that starts litestream with the -exec flag to start my app as a child process.[3]

[0] https://github.com/mtlynch/logpaste

[1] https://github.com/mtlynch/picoshare

[2] https://github.com/mtlynch/screenjournal

[3] https://github.com/mtlynch/logpaste/blob/0.3.1/docker-entryp...

xomodo
Thx. The only problem I have with litestream binary is ~31Mb !?

This why I prefer to take backup stuff in a side container, eg: https://github.com/atrakic/gin-sqlite/blob/main/compose.yml

As a side note, you might consider revisiting your dockerfiles and skip litestream build steps, eg. in your final stage just add line like this:

COPY --from=litestream/litestream /usr/local/bin/litestream /bin/litestream

dkhenry
I tried to go the litestream route on Fly.io, but there is too much that needs to be done to get it working. Specifically I was hoping scaling would be a lot easier, but master election kept breaking for me causing the whole app to not be able to come online. I just moved to Fly's managed postgres and called it a day.

Their managed postgres has gotten better, but its still a little sparse, so after about 6 months using it I am going to just take my DB to either Supabase or Planetscale.

bradgessler
Yeah, something that’s messed up that they don’t think is messed up is running `fly console` fires up another instance, which isn’t attached to the same volume, so you have to run `fly ssh console —pty`

It’s certainly not intuitive. It would be awesome if they sweat these details, but their deal is “here’s a bag of sharp knives”, which is good for some use cases.

nop_slide
I setup a fresh rails 8 app on Fly last year, using PG for the main data store but using SQLite for the ancillary solid stack dbs.

Only fuss I remember encountering was with fighting with rails migrating solid queue properly, but this seemed like a rails unit issue and don’t remember it being a Fly issue.

I’ve been contemplating migrating my pg primary to SQLite too. Anyways don’t have much else to offer other than an anecdote that I’m happily using fly with partial SQLite.

Lord_Zero
I use in production but it's a console app that lives on a server. The database sits on a file share.
hoppp
I self host on a vps Litestream works for that quite well
dave78
Interesting tidbit regarding LiteFS/Litestream:

> But the market has spoken! Users prefer Litestream. And honestly, we get it: Litestream is easier to run and to reason about. So we’ve shifted our focus back to it.

simonw
That makes sense to me. LiteFS used FUSE, which meant figuring out how to run and mount a custom filesystem. Litestream is a single compiled Go binary that you point at the SQLite database file (and accompanying WAL file).
sealeck
In the previous post on the Fly.io blog (https://fly.io/blog/litestream-revamped/), a really cool thing was mentioned!

> In Litestream, we’re solving the problem a different way. Modern object stores like S3 and Tigris solve this problem for us: they now offer conditional write support. With conditional writes, we can implement a time-based lease. We get essentially the same constraint Consul gave us, but without having to think about it or set up a dependency.

Reading this blog post though, I couldn't see any reference to this. Is this supported in Litestream v0.5.0, or will it be for a future release?

barefootford
I look forward to trying this out. Any benchmarks or demos on how long it actually takes to restore? I ended up cooking my own boring S3 backup because previously litestream took 20 minutes to restore something like 1000 rows. It felt extremely unoptimized. How long does restoration take today?
umajho
It seems Litestream will soon support arbitrary s3-compatible destinations.[^1] Neat.

So far I’ve stuck with the SFTP solution, since I don’t use any of the cloud object storage services that are hardcoded into the tool.[^2]

Big thanks to the developers.

[^1]: https://github.com/benbjohnson/litestream/pull/731

[^2]: https://litestream.io/guides/#replica-guides

wodenokoto
We have an in house application installed on a remote fleet with spotty internet access. Because of the spotty internet we have a lot of trouble setting up a reliable system for getting data home.

Could how does litestream handle backing up through a spotty connection and can we consolidate the backups into a central db an query against it?

geenat
Advantages of Litestream over https://sqlite.org/rsync.html ?
kevincox
FWIW. We saw this and I started experimenting. A simple case of copying our production database locally a few times. About 1 in 4 times the local database was corrupted after running it. I also experienced very strange command line parsing bugs and different behaviour depending on the name of the local database file.

So I would treat sqlite3_rsync as more of a demo than a stable product right now.

Litestream provides near-real-time offsite replication and point in time recovery, which sqlite3_rsync won't do on its own. You could probably build a litestream-like product based on sqlite3_rsync but it probably won't be as fast or as efficient on storage.

thelibrarian
Litestream gives you point in time recovery - you can restore to any snapshot time, not just have a current replica.
ncruces
The other advantage (or difference) is that you don't need a “server” on the other end, just object storage. Which may come out cheaper.
gizzlon
Could you use it locally and the upload the result to object storage?

I would probably run both litestream and full backups, to get extra safety

ncruces
Sure. But you'll be transferring the entire file everytime.

The advantage of sqlite3_rsync is that, if on the other end is an SSH server with sqlite3_rsync, you only transfer the changed pages, and still get a “perfect” copy of the file on the other end.

The advantage of Litestream is that on the other end does not need to live a “server,” and still only changes are uploaded. If you do it continuously, you get many points to recover from, and many of those cross reference each other, saving storage space too. On the flip side, you need the tool to restore.

lordofmoria
A small warning for folks.

I once was responsible for migrating a legacy business app to Azure, and the app had a local MSSQL server co-running with the app (the same pattern that Litestream is using).

As have been mentioned below, the app had been developed assuming the local access (and thus <1ms latency), so it had a ton of N+1 everywhere.

This made it almost impossible to migrate/transition to another configuration.

So, if this style of app hosting doesn't take off and you're at all worried about this being a dead end storage once you reach a certain scale, I'd recommend not doing this, otherwise your options will be very limited.

Then again - I bet you could get very very far on a single box, so maybe it'd be a non factor! :)

masterj
> I bet you could get very very far on a single box,

With single instances topping out at 20+ TBs of RAM and hundreds of cores, I think this is likely very under-explored as an option

Even more if you combine this with cell-based architecture, splitting on users / tenants instead of splitting the service itself.

immibis
Single instance is underappreciated in general. There's a used server reseller near me, and sometimes I check their online catalogue out of curiosity. For only $1000ish I could have some few generations old box with dual socket 32-core chips and 1TB of RAM. I don't have any purpose for which I'd need that, but it's surprisingly cheap if I did. And things can scale up from there. AWS will charge you the same per month that it costs to get one of your own forever - not counting electricity or hard drives.
switz
I run my entire business on a single OVH box that costs roughly $45/month. It has plenty of headroom for growth. The hardest part is getting comfortable with k8s (still worth it for a single node!) but I’ve never had more uptime and resiliency than I do now. I was spending upwards of $800/mo on AWS a few years ago with way less stability and speed. I could set up two nodes for availability, but it wouldn’t really gain me much. Downtime in my industry is expected, and my downtime is rarely related to my web services (externalities). In a worst case scenario, I could have the whole platform back up in under 6 hours on a new box. Maybe even faster.
likium
What's the benefit of using K3 on a single node?
ahoog42
any notes or pointers on how to get comfortable with k8? For a simple nodejs app I was looking down the pm2 route but I wonder of learning k8 is just more future proof.
sciencesama
Is this vanilla k8 or any flavor?
switz
I use microk8s
Fnoord
I guess you got cheap power. Me too, but not 24/7 and not a whole lot (solar). So old enterprise hardware is a no-go for me. I do like ECC, but DDR5 is a step in the right direction.
inerte
I used to work on a product where the app server and database were in the same rack - so similar low latency. But the product was successful, so our N+1 would generate thousands of queries and 1ms would become >500ms or more easily. Every other month we would look at New Relic and find some slow spot.

It was a Rails app, therefore easy to get into the N+1 but also somewhat easy to fix.

1-more
For our rails app we actually added tests asserting no N+1s in our controller tests. Think a test setup with 1 post vs 10 posts (via factorybot) and you could do an assertion that the DB query count was not different between the two. A useful technique for any Railsheads reading this!
simonw
That's a good trick. In Django world I like pytest-django's django_assert_max_num_queries fixture: https://pytest-django.readthedocs.io/en/latest/helpers.html#...

  def test_homepage_queries(django_assert_max_num_queries, client):
      with django_assert_max_num_queries(10):
          assert client.get("/").status_code == 200
Or django_assert_num_queries to assert an exact number.
jasonwatkinspdx
Way back in the prehistoric era of Rails I just wrote a like 5 line monkey punch to ActiveRecord that would kill mongrel if queries per request went above a limit.

Probably some of the most valuable code I've ever written on a per LOC basis lol.

But anyhow, merging that into a new project was always a fun day. But on the other side of the cleanup the app stops falling down due to memory leaks.

rco8786
Bad query practices are always going to bite you eventually. I would not call that a shortcoming of this approach
laurencerowe
It's not a bad query practice in SQLite! https://www.sqlite.org/np1queryprob.html
metadat
What is N+1?
cbm-vic-20
There's a common access pattern with object-relational mapping frameworks where an initial query will be used to get a list of ids, then an individual queries are emitted for each item to get the details of the items. For example, if you have a database table full of stories, and you want to see only the stories written by a certain author, it is common for a framework to have a function like

    stories = get_stories(query)
which results in a SQL query like

    SELECT id FROM stories WHERE author = ?
with the '?' being bound to some concrete value like "Jim".

Then, the framework will be used to do something like this

    for id in stories {
        story = get_story_by_id(id)
        // do something with story
    }
which results in N SQL queries with

    SELECT title, author, date, content FROM stories WHERE id = ?
and there's your N+1
ComputerGuru
This plagues (plagued?) pretty much everything to do with WordPress, from core to every theme and plugin developed.
metadat
Oh yeah, the ORM thing (common side-effect with DB query abstractions) - I must not have been fully awake. Cheers and thank you for humoring me, @cbm-vic-20!
tehlike
With orms, it can be easy, but also often fixed with eager fetching too.
simonw
The thing where your app displays 20 stories in the homepage, but for each story it runs an extra query to fetch the author, and another to fetch the tags.

It's usually a big problem for database performance because each query carries additional overhead for the network round trip to the database server.

SQLite queries are effectively a C function call accessing data on local disk so this is much less of an issue - there's an article about that in the SQLite docs here: https://www.sqlite.org/np1queryprob.html

upmostly
The N+1 problem basically means instead of making one efficient query, you end up making N separate queries inside a loop. For example, fetching a list of tables, then for each table fetching its columns individually — that’s N+1 queries. It works, but it’s slow.

We ran into this while building, funnily enough, a database management app called DB Pro (https://dbpro.app) At first we were doing exactly that: query for all schemas, then for each schema query its tables, and then for each table query its columns. On a database with hundreds of tables it took ~3.8s.

We fixed it by flipping the approach: query all the schemas, then all the tables, then all the columns in one go, and join them in memory. That dropped the load time to ~180ms.

N+1 is one of those things you only really “get” when you hit it in practice.

Scubabear68
Object Relational Mapping (ORM) tools, which focus on mapping between code based objects and SQL tables, often suffer from what is called the N+1 problem.

A naive ORM setup will often end up doing a 1 query to get a list of object it needs, and then perform N queries, one per object, usually fetching each object individually by ID or key.

So for example, if you wanted to see “all TVs by Samsung” on a consumer site, it would do 1 query to figure out the set of items that match, and then if say 200 items matched, it would do 200 queries to get those individual items.

ORMs are better at avoiding it these days, depending on the ORM or language, but it still can happen.

OJFord
I dislike ORMs as much as the next ORM disliker, but people who are more comfortable in whatever the GP programming language is than SQL will write N+1 queries with or without an ORM.
iamflimflam1
Very true. But ORMs did make it particularly easy to trigger N+1 selects.

It used to be a very common pitfall - and often not at all obvious. You’d grab a collection of objects from the ORM, process them in a loop, and everything looked fine because the objects were already rehydrated in memory.

Then later, someone would access a property on a child object inside that loop. What looked like a simple property access would silently trigger a database query. The kicker was that this could be far removed from any obvious database access, so the person causing the issue often had no idea they were generating dozens (or hundreds) of extra queries.

Spivak
This problem is associated with ORMs but the moment there's a get_user(id) function which does a select and you need to display a list of users someone will run it in a loop to generate the list and it will look like it's working until the user list gets long.

I really wish there was a way to compose SQL so you can actually write the dumb/obvious thing and it will run a single query. I talked with a dev once who seemed to have the beginnings of a system that could do this. It leveraged async and put composable queryish objects into a queue and kept track of what what callers needed what results, merged and executed the single query, and then returned the results. Obviously far from generalizable for arbitrary queries but it did seem to work.

riffraff
I think many ORMs can solve (some of) this these days.

e.g. for ActiveRecord there's ar_lazy_preloader[0] or goldiloader[1] which fix many N+1s by keeping track of a context: you load a set of User in one go, and when you do user.posts it will do a single query for all, and when you then access post.likes it will load all likes for those and so on. Or, if you get the records some other way, you add them to a shared context and then it works.

Doesn't solve everything, but helps quite a bit.

[0] https://github.com/DmitryTsepelev/ar_lazy_preload

[1] https://github.com/salsify/goldiloader

skeeter2020
I defense of the application developer, it is very difficult to adopt set theory thinking which helps with SQL when you've never had any real education in this area, and it's tough to switch between it and the loop-oriented processing you're likely using in your application code for almost everyone. ORMs bridge this divide which is why they fall in the trap consistently. Often it's an acceptable trade-off for the value you get from the abstraction, but then you pay the price when you need to address the leak!
whizzter
Yep, people who think OOP is all you need will just "abstract away the database".
Quarrelsome
I mean, that's not much of a trade off given that it seems that what you're saying is that using such a service might just show you how shit your code actually is.

Its not its fault. :)

sighansen
Really love litestream. Easy to use and never crashes on me. I still recommend using it as a systemd unit service. I'm not only using it as a backup tool but also to mirror databases. Looking forward to their read-replica feature.
atombender
What I'd like to see is a system where a single-writer SQLite database is replicated to object storage so that you can spin up really cheap read replicas. Is anyone working on something like that?

Such a system would also require a side channel propagating WAL updates (over Kafka or similar) to replicas, so that the running replicas can update themselves incrementally and stay fresh without loading anything from object storage.

anentropic
Litestream is basically that, though the OP article has "The next major feature we’re building out is a Litestream VFS for read replicas" as a What's Next todo at the bottom.

https://litestream.io/guides/s3/

I think this is also roughly what Turso is, although it's becoming a SQLite-compatible db rather than vanilla

https://docs.turso.tech/features/embedded-replicas/introduct...

https://docs.turso.tech/cloud/durability

atombender
I don't Litestream does that yet? It appears to be for backing up to S3, and you manually "restore" the image to a file. You can't point an SQLite client at the S3 bucket, and there's no provision for getting low latency updates. But it sounds like they're working on this.

Turso looks cool and is a project I will keep an eye on, but it's replica mode seems to be designed for apps rather than mechanism to rapidly scale out read replicas in a server cluster. Also, the web site warns that it's not ready for production use.

simonw
LiteFS can do that, but you need to run a custom FUSE filesystem for it - hence why Litestream remained more popular. https://fly.io/docs/litefs/how-it-works/#capturing-sqlite-tr...

Litestream is working on that now - the code is already in https://github.com/benbjohnson/litestream/blob/v0.5.0/vfs.go but it's not yet a working, documented feature.

atombender
LiteFS is also described as "beta" quality on GitHub and therefore not appropriate for production use.
ncruces
I mean, that's literally their "What’s next?" from the OP: https://fly.io/blog/litestream-v050-is-here/#whats-next

They already have a prototype, and... it's pretty rough on the edges.

I'm porting it to my Go SQLite driver and already ran into a bunch of issues. But it seems at least feasible to get it into a working shape.

https://github.com/benbjohnson/litestream/issues/772

https://github.com/ncruces/go-sqlite3/compare/main...litestr...

koeng
Interesting! I really like your wasm compiled SQLite more than the pure Go one, so it is what I use most of the time.

What exactly are you trying to port?

ncruces
A VFS that allows you to directly open a Litestream replication target (e.g. S3) as a read-only database and run queries against it without ever having to download the entire database (e.g. to an ephemeral instance that doesn't even have the disk space for it).
koeng
Interesting. Any plans for a cache? Or would that just be a litestream thing
ncruces
I… honestly don't know. I saw the announcement some time ago (the revamped post) and started following their repo. They did mention caching to hide latency.

When I saw the v0.5.0 tag, I dived into just porting it. It's just over a couple hundred lines, and I have more experience with SQLite VFSes than most, so why not.

But it's still pretty shaky.

emadda
Cloudflare D1 has this, although you are limited to using JS workers to read/write it.

https://developers.cloudflare.com/d1/best-practices/read-rep...

Nelkins
I'm curious about the same, but also am wondering if there can be an automatic election of a new primary through the use of conditional writes (or as Fly.io say, CASAAS: Compare-and-Swap as a Service).
TemptedMuse
Maybe I misunderstand what this is, but why would I use this and not MySQL, Postgres, or any other proper database? Seems like a hack to get SQLite to do what those do by design.
kblissett
One of the big advantages people enjoy is the elimination of the network latency between the application server and the DB. With SQLite your DB is right there often directly attached over NVME. This improves all access latencies and even enables patterns like N+1 queries which would typically be considered anti-patterns in other DBs.
pbowyer
> One of the big advantages people enjoy is the elimination of the network latency between the application server and the DB. With SQLite your DB is right there often directly attached over NVME.

You can install MySQL/PostgreSQL on the application server, connect over a unix socket and get the same benefits as if you'd used SQLite on the application server (no network latency, fast queries). Plus the other benefits that come from using these database servers (Postgres extensions, remote connections, standard tooling etc). I'm guessing more RAM is required on the application server than if you used SQLite but I haven't benchmarked it.

bob1029
Unix sockets don't actually give you the same benefit. You're still doing IPC which can incur substantial memory subsystem utilization. SQLite is on the same thread/core as whatever is using it.
pbowyer
TIL. Thanks!
turnsout
Real talk, how do you actually avoid N+1? I realize you can do complicated JOINs, but isn't that almost as bad from a performance perspective? What are you really supposed to do if you need to, e.g. fetch a list of posts along with the number of comments on each post?
simonw
Often you can use joins to get the data in a single complex SQL query. Number of comments for a post is relatively straight-forward, but you can also do increasingly complex associated data fetches with modern databases.

In particular, JSON aggregations mean you can have a single query that does things like fetch a blog entry and the earliest 10 comments in a single go. I wrote up some patterns for doing that in SQLite and PostgreSQL here: https://github.com/simonw/til/blob/main/sqlite/related-rows-...

Here's an example PostgreSQL query that does this to fetch tags for posts: https://simonwillison.net/dashboard/json-agg-example

  select
    blog_entry.id,
    title,
    slug,
    created,
    coalesce(json_agg(json_build_object(blog_tag.id, blog_tag.tag)) filter (
      where
        blog_tag.tag is not null
    ), json_build_array()) as tags
  from
    blog_entry
    left join blog_entry_tags on blog_entry.id = blog_entry_tags.entry_id
    left join blog_tag on blog_entry_tags.tag_id = blog_tag.id
  group by
    blog_entry.id
  order by
    blog_entry.id desc
The alternative, more common path is the pattern that Django calls "prefetch_related". Effectively looks like this:

  select id, title, created from posts order by created desc limit 20

  -- Now extract the id values from that and run:

  select
    blog_entry.id,
    blog_tag.tag
  from
    blog_entry
    join blog_entry_tags on blog_entry.id = blog_entry_tags.entry_id
    join blog_tag on blog_entry_tags.tag_id = blog_tag.id
  where
    blog_entry.id in (?, ?, ?, ...)

  -- Now you can re-assemble the list of tags for
  -- each entry in your application logic
Once you have a list of e.g. 20 IDs you can run a bunch of cheap additional queries to fetch extra data about all 20 of those items.
crazygringo
> I realize you can do complicated JOINs, but isn't that almost as bad from a performance perspective?

No, JOINs should be orders of magnitude faster.

> What are you really supposed to do if you need to, e.g. fetch a list of posts along with the number of comments on each post?

You're really supposed to do a JOIN, together with a GROUP BY and a COUNT(). This is elementary SQL.

joevandyk
it gets more complicated when you need to also display something like "last comment: <author> <3 days ago>" for each post, or if the comment counts need to be filtered by various flags/states/etc.

of course, it's all possible with custom SQL but it gets complicated quick.

simjnd
AFAIK the problem of N+1 isn't necessarily one more DB query, but one more network roundtrip. So if for each page of your app you have an API endpoint that provides exactly all of the data required for that page, it doesn't matter how many DB queries your API server makes to fulfill that request (provided that the API server and the DB are on the same machine).

This is essentially what GraphQL does instead of crafting each of these super tailored API endpoints for each of your screens, you use their query language to ask for the data you want, it queries the DB for you and get you the data back in a single network roundtrip from the user perspective.

(Not an expert, so I trust comments to correct what I got wrong)

jerrygenser
You still have to write the resolver for graphql. I've seen. N+1 with graphql if you don't actually use data loader+batch pattern OR if you use it incorrectly.
toast0
A proper join is the right answer. But, it's not always possible to make those run well. [1] A "client side join" in the right situation can be much better, but then you probably want to do a 1+1 rathet than N+1. Do the first query to get the ids for the second query, and then construct the second query with IN or UNION depending on what works best for you database. UNION likely bloats your query string, but I've seen plenty of situations where UNION is gobs faster than IN.

Alternately, if you can separate query issuance from result parsing, you can make N+1 palletable. Ex, do your query to get the ids, wait for the results, loop and issue the N queries, then loop and wait for results in order. That will be two-ish round trips rather than N+1 round trips. But you have to search to find database apis that allow that kind of separation.

[1] You can almost always express the query you want in SQL, but that doesn't mean it will have a reasonable runtime. Sometimes server side join and client side join have about the same runtime... if it's significant and you have the usual case where clients are easier to scale than database servers, it might be worthwhile to have the join run on the client to reduce server load.

immibis
The performance problem in N+1 is (mostly) not in fetching the N rows from disk, but rather from multiplying the network latency by a factor of N. Joins solve this; so do stored procedures.

In general, you want to ask the remote server once for all the data you need, then read all the results. It applies to databases as well as APIs.

Pipelined requests also solve the problem and can be more flexible.

Also, joins can be optimised in different ways. Sometimes the optimal way to do a join isn't to query each row one-by-one, but to do something like (when the rows you want are a large fraction of the rows that exist) making a bloom filter of the rows you want and then sequentially reading all the rows in the table.

t0mas88
A JOIN is fast, fetching the whole list in one extra query with "WHERE id IN (...)" is also pretty fast and results in less complex queries if you have serval of these. Doing all queries separate is slow because of the network round-trip for each query.
No, JOINs are pretty much always faster than performing N+1 queries.
jamie_ca
Either joins for a fat query, or aggregate the subqueries.

For the latter, it's along the lines of `select * from posts where ...` and `select * from authors where id in {posts.map(author_id)}`. And then once it's in memory you manually work out the associations (or rely on your ORM to do it).

erpellan
You do indeed use JOINS. The goal is to retrieve exactly the data you require in a single query. Then you get the DB to `EXPLAIN VERBOSE` or similar and ensure that full table scans aren't happening and that you have indexed the columns the query is being filtered on.
asalahli
Avoiding N+1 doesn't have to mean limiting yourself to 1 query. You can still fetch the posts in one query and the comments of _all_ posts in a separate query, just don't issue a query for _each_ post.

More formally, the number of queries should be constant and not linearly scaling with the number of rows you're processing.

bccdee
The actual thing that we're getting N+1 of is network round-trips. An additional network round-trip is way, way slower than an extra JOIN clause. That's why N+1 query patterns aren't a problem when you're using a local database: There's no round-trip.
ComputerGuru
A well-written JOIN against a well-designed database (regardless if we're talking postgres, SQLite, MySQL/MariaDB, or MS SQL) should not be slow. If it's slow, you're using it wrong.
arbll
To avoid operating a database by yourself and dealing with incidents, backups, replicas, failovers, etc... You can use cheap commoditised S3-like storage and run your application statelessly.

If you have access to a database that is well managed on your behalf I would definitely still go with that for many usecases.

tptacek
It's significantly faster and incurs less ops overhead. That's it.

But most apps should just use a classic n-tier database architecture like Postgres. We mostly do too (though Litestream does back some stuff here like our token system).

victorbjorklund
Why use Postgres if all you need is sqlite? Postgres is way overkill for a simple app with few users and no advanced database functionality.
yellow_lead
Because Postgres is mature, works, and has a version number above v1.0?
teeray
If v1.0 is your North Star, you should re-evaluate a whole lot of software in your stack: https://0ver.org/#notable-zerover-projects
8organicbits
I think you're focusing on the wrong parts of the comment.

People care about things like long-term support. Postgres 13, from 2020, is still officially supported. Litestream 0.1.0 was the first release, also from 2020, but I can't tell if it is supported still. Worrying about the maturity, stability, and support of an application database is very reasonable in risk adverse projects.

zwnow
Version numbers dont mean anything as the whole Elixir ecosystem shows:D
skeeter2020
this is essentially the "no one ever got fired for buying IBM" statement. One counter is why buy & manage a rack-mounted server when all you need is a raspberry Pi?
immibis
Postgres can also run on the Pi.

More than once I've started a project with sqlite and then had to migrate to postgres. In my experience it's because of the way sqlite has to lock the whole database file while writing to it, blocking concurrent reads - this isn't a problem in postgres. (There's WAL mode, but it still serialises all writes, and requires periodic explicit checkpointing IME)

You may also find you really want a feature postgres has, for example more advanced data types (arrays, JSON), more advanced indices (GIN inverted index on array members), replication...

victorbjorklund
I'm guessing this is a joke?
johnfn
Why would saying that Postgres is a mature database - more mature than SQLite - be a joke?
danenania
For a cloud service, I think it comes down to whether you’ll ever want more than one app server.

If you’re building something as a hobby project and you know it will always fit on one server, sqlite is perfect.

If it’s meant to be a startup and grow quickly, you don’t want to have to change your database to horizontally scale.

Deploying without downtime is also much easier with multiple servers. So again, it depends whether you’re doing something serious enough that you can’t tolerate dropping any requests during deploys.

tptacek
This is the idea behind LiteFS --- to transparently scale out SQLite (in some very common configurations and workloads) to support multiple app servers. It's still there and it works! It's just a little ahead of its time. :)
danenania
That makes sense, and it seems really cool from a tech perspective. I guess I'm just inherently skeptical about using something shiny and new vs. battle hardened databases that were designed from the beginning to be client-server.

It's definitely really nice though that if you do choose sqlite initially to keep things as small and simple as possible, you don't immediately need to switch databases if you want to scale.

tptacek
I think that's very fair. But the use case for Litestream is much simpler and you can get your head around it immediately. It also doesn't ask you to do anything that would commit you to SQLite rather than switching to Postgres later. It's just a way of very easily getting a prod caliber backend up for an app without needing a database server.
victorbjorklund
99,99% of apps dont need more than one app server. You can serve a lot of traffic on the larges instances.

For sure downtime is easier with kubernete etc but again overkill for 99,99% of apps.

Serving users is one thing. Then you want to run some interactive analytics or cronjobs for cleanup etc on the db. Even if the load can manage it, how would the admin jobs connect to the database. I’ve never seen a db with only one client. There is always some auxiliary thing, even when you don’t consider yourself a microservice shop.
skeeter2020
you can also scale out across unlimited tiny servers, because the entire stack is so lightweight and cheap. This will also force you to focus on devops, which otherwise can become a grind with this approach. The only challenge is when you have cross-DB concerns, either data or clients.
danenania
Right, but if your goal is to have a lot of users (and minimal downtime), there's no point in putting a big avoidable obstacle in your path when the alternative is just as easy.
TemptedMuse
I'd argue that anything larger than a desktop app should not use SQLite. If you need Litestream for replication and backup it is probably better to just use Postgres. There are a ton of one-click deployment offerings for proper databases, Fly.io actually offers managed Postgres.
victorbjorklund
Why would you argue that? Do you have some benchmarks backing it up or is it more a personal preference?
crazygringo
It's literally what they're designed for.

SQLite is designed for one local client at a time. Client-server relational databases are designed for many clients at a time.

vmg12
Let's say I'm building a small app that I'm hosting on some shared vps, if I think about the effort involved in setting up sqlite with litestream and just getting a $5 (or free) postgres provider I don't think sqlite makes my life easier.

Now if I'm building a local app then absolutely sqlite makes the most sense but I don't see it otherwise.

bccdee
Litestream is dead simple to setup. You make an S3 bucket (or any compatible storage bucket), paste the access keys and the path to your db file in /etc/litestream, and then run

  dpkg -i litestream.deb
  systemctl enable litestream
  systemctl start litestream
The fact it's so simple is my favourite thing about it.
indigodaddy
Are there any use cases/documentation about how litestream can be used within a docker based deployment? (Eg where systemctl wouldn't be used)
victorbjorklund
Effort of setting up litestream and sqlite is less time than you spend signing up for supabase. And you can have 100 apps with their own databases for almost free (just a few cents of storage) vs 5*100 for postgres.

I love postgres but in no way is it as simple to run as sqlite (pretty sure even postgres core team would agree that postgres is more complex than sqlite).

WorldMaker
The common answer (especially from Fly.io) is "at-the-edge" computing/querying. There is network latency involved in sending a query to MySQL or Postgres and getting the data returned, whereas with Litestream you could put a read replica of the entire SQLite DB at every edge. Queries become fast and efficient only to the local read replica. There's still network latency associated with updating that read replica over time, but it is amortized based on the number of overall writes rather than the number of queries, is more fault tolerant in "eventually consistent" workflows (you can answer queries from the read replica at the edge in the state that you have it while you wait for the network to reconnect and replay the writes you missed during the fault), and with SQLite backing it still has much of the same full relational DB query power of SQL you would expect from a larger (or "proper") database like MySQL or Postgres.
SchwKatze
Law Theorem[1] fits perfectly for this scenario

1- https://law-theorem.com/

manishsharan
I have a branch office in boondocks with limited internet connection. The branch office cannot manage a RDBMS or access cloud services. They can use sqlite app on LAN and we could do reconciliation at end of the business day.
skeeter2020
they can also run the entire application in these scenarios on the resources of a 10-yr-old phone.
andrewmutz
I'm not sure, I've never done it, but I think the idea is to have many tiny customer-specific databases and move them to be powered by sqlite very close to the customer.

But I'd love to hear more from someone more well-versed in the use cases for reliable sql-lite

bob1029
I find myself mostly in this camp now.

In every case where I had a SQLite vertical that required resilience, the customer simply configured the block storage device for periodic snapshots. Litestream is approximately the same idea, except you get block device snapshots implicitly as part of being in the cloud. There is no extra machinery to worry about and you won't forget about a path/file/etc.

Also, streaming replication to S3 is not that valuable an idea to me when we consider the recovery story. All other solutions support hot & ready replicas within seconds.

sauercrowd
It's a good question, and I don't think answered sufficiently in the recent sqlite hype.

In my opinion if you have an easy way to run postgres,MySQL,... - just run that.

There's usually a lot of quirks in the details of DB usage (even when it doesn't immediately seem like it - got bitten by it a few times). Features not supported, different semantics, ...

IMO every project has an "experimental stuff" budget and if you go over it it's too broken to recover, and for most projects there's just not that much to win by spending them on a new database thing

skeeter2020
>> the recent sqlite hype.

This is an interesting take; why do you see recent hype around the most boring and stone-age of technologies, SQLite?

sauercrowd
The rails creator dhh has been hyping it up a lot in the first 6 month of this year, and quite a few followed of the "Dev influencers" scene. Fly's litestream came out around that time, and there's been more sqlite in the cloud companies/discussions, in particular with the AI agent use-case.

Not super sure who followed who but there was all of a sudden a lot of excitement

simonw
Litestream's first release was February 2021: https://www.hackerneue.com/item?id=26103776

SQLite's "buzz" isn't new, type "sqlite" into my https://tools.simonwillison.net/hacker-news-histogram tool and you'll see interest (on HN at least) has been pretty stable since 2021.

Quarrelsome
this is infra for a single-user app. SQLite is THE replacement for file databases like MSAccess, but the box goes down and your database dies with all your data.

So this fills that gap by giving you a database as a service level of QOL without needing to provision a database as a service backend. Otherwise you're dicking about maintaining a service with all that comes with that (provisioning, updating, etc) when really all you need is a file that is automagically backed up or placed somewhere on the web to avoid the drawbacks of the local file system.

trallnag
But aren't many single-user apps still multi-platform? For example as an Android application but also as a web app the user might access from his desktop device?
kristianp
Sqlite and msaccess can and have often been used with multiple users. I have experience with the latter in the 2000s with Access on a network share.
Quarrelsome
it's not the correct solution for multiple users. If you want that then you should be running a database as a service.

> If there are many client programs sending SQL to the same database over a network, then use a client/server database engine instead of SQLite.

https://www.sqlite.org/whentouse.html

kristianp
An argument for using postgres is that you can still use one server, and postrgres has multithreading which allows for more performance.
canadiantim
To enable local-first or offline-first design. I prefer having data stored on-device and only optionally backed up to cloud
bccdee
Whatever database you end up using, you'll need some sort of backup solution. Litestream is a streamed backup solution which effectively doubles as replication for durability purposes.

MySQL, Postgres, etc. have a much greater overhead for setup, unless you want to pay for a managed database, which is not going to be worth the price for small quantities of data.

JSR_FDED
Question about using Litestream - I have an app running, and now need to upgrade it to a newer version. Currently I build the new version in a different directory, stop the old app, copy/migrate the database from the old version to the new version (in the new directory). Then finally I delete the old directory, and rename the new directory to be the production one.

Will Litestream freak out about the database being replaced underneath it?

Will I still be able to restore old versions of the DB?

JaggerFoo
Interesting information that they chose modernc.org/sqlite over mattn/go-sqlite3 as a Quality-of-Life improvement. Going forward I guess I'll do the same for new projects.

The NATS Jetstream use case is something I'm curious about.

Cheers and keep up the great work on Litestream.

threemux
All the public benchmarks (and my own applications) indicate that there is only a small (often unnoticeable) performance penalty associated with modernc.org/sqlite and this is far outweighed by the ability to eliminate CGO. I'd use it on future projects without hesitation.
grahar64
FUSE is such a cool idea but every application always suffers performance problems when stressed. I tried LiteFS and it worked, but litestream was awesome.
keeganpoppen
i am not a big fly.io fan per se, but their blog posts, especially in this sort of sphere, is delightful, and i absolutely commend them for this. fly has a fascinating combination of “dev-forward” and “we made this complicated because it shits us” that continues to confound me, but i must confess i am a big fan of this project, and a number of other projects (e.g. svelte) that they seem to genuinely treat in an arms-length, “let a thousand flowers bloom” sort of way.
taejavu
I’m curious what you don’t like about fly.io. Also what’s the connection to svelte?
tptacek
Just so we're all clear: Litestream is just an open source project, not a feature of our platform. This isn't about Fly.io.
I don't even care about the topic (much) (right now), but this is a really well written blog post / announcement.
tptacek
Thanks, what'd you like about it?
For me, the introspection and meeting (us) where we're at:

>But the market has spoken! Users prefer Litestream.

>Yeah, we didn’t like those movies much either.

Would it be a good fit for a application with the user base and size of let's say Fresh books?
danw1979
Can’t wait for Kyle to set Jepsen loose on this.
Aurornis
Jepsen is primarily for testing distributed systems and consensus systems. SQLite has neither of those.
tptacek
Litestream is pretty boring for the testing Kyle does. It's not a distributed consensus system, but something more like a storage engine.
dastbe
litestream makes very few consistency guarantees compared to other datastores, and so I would expect most any issues found would be "working as intended".

at the end of the day with litestream, when you respond back to a client with a successful write you are only guaranteeing a replication factor of 1.

simonw
By "replication factor of 1" you mean your data is stored on local disk only, right? That matches my understanding: Litestream replication is asynchronous, so there's usually a gap of a seconds or two between your write being accepted and the resulting updated page being pushed off to S3 or similar.
dastbe
Yes. the acknowledgement you're getting in your application code is that the data was persisted in sqlite on that host. There's no mechanism to delay acknowledgement until the write has been asynchronously persisted elsewhere.
simonw
An interesting comparison here is Cloudflare's Durable Objects, which provide a blocking SQLite write that doesn't return until the data has been written to multiple network replicas: https://blog.cloudflare.com/sqlite-in-durable-objects/#trick...
simonw
I wonder if it would be possible to achieve this using a SQLite VFS extension - maybe that could block acknowledgment of a right until the underlying page has been written to S3?
mmaunder
Is this a transcript?

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