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If everyone is going to wait 3 days before installing the latest version of a compromised package, it will take more than 3 days to detect an incident.

Think about how the three major recent incidents were caught: not by individual users installing packages but by security companies running automated scans on new uploads flagging things for audits. This would work quite well in that model, and it’s cheap in many cases where there isn’t a burning need to install something which just came out.
I think there's some confusion here. No automated scan was able to catch the attack. It was an individual who notified these startups.
Quite possibly - there have been several incidents recently and a number of researchers working together so it’s not clear exactly who found something first and it’s definitely not as simple to fix as tossing a tool in place.

The CEO of socket.dev described an automated pipeline flagging new uploads for analysts, for example, which is good but not instantaneous:

https://www.hackerneue.com/item?id=45257681

The Aikido team also appear to be suggesting they investigated a suspicious flag (apologies if I’m misreading their post), which again needs time for analysts to work:

https://www.aikido.dev/blog/npm-debug-and-chalk-packages-com...

My thought was simply that these were caught relatively quickly by security researchers rather than by compromised users reporting breaches. If you didn’t install updates with a relatively short period of time after they were published, the subsequent response would keep you safe. Obviously that’s not perfect and a sophisticated, patient attack like liblzma suffered would likely still be possible but there really does seem to be a value to having something like Debian’s unstable/stable divide where researchers and thrill-seekers would get everything ASAP but most people would give it some time to be tested. What I’d really like to see is a community model for funding that and especially supporting independent researchers.

Automated scans have detected 72251 out of the previous 3 supply-chain attacks
Reminds me of that michael burry quote.
Wow so couldn't said security co's establish their own registry that we could point to instead and packages would only get updated after they reviewed and approved them?

I mean I'd prolly be okay paying yearly fee for access to such a registry.

IIUC chainguard is this, but only for python, java, and docker images so far. https://www.chainguard.dev/libraries
I think it would be a no brainer for npm to offer this but idk why they haven’t
Probably because they would expose themselves legally? Not sure what the current situation is exactly, but I assume it's "at your own risk".
A lot of people will still use npm, so they'll be the canaries in the coal mine :)

More seriously, automated scanners seem to do a good job already of finding malicious packages. It's a wonder that npm themselves haven't already deployed an automated countermeasure.

> automated scanners seem to do a good job already of finding malicious packages.

That's not true. This latest incident was detected by an individual researcher, just like many similar attacks in the past. Time and again, it's been people who flagged these issues, later reported to security startups, not automated tools. Don't fall for the PR spin.

If automated scanning were truly effective, we'd see deployments across all major package registries. The reality is, these systems still miss what vigilant humans catch.

> This latest incident was detected by an individual researcher

So that still seems fine? Presumably researchers are focusing on latest releases, and so their work would not be impacted by other people using this new pnpm option.

> If automated scanning were truly effective, we'd see deployments across all major package registries.

No we wouldn't. Most package registries are run by either bigcorps at a loss or by community maintainers (with bigcorps again sponsoring the infrastructure).

And many of them barely go beyond the "CRUD" of package publishing due to lack of resources. The economic incentives of building up supply chain security tools into the package registries themselves are just not there.

You're right that registries are under-resourced. But, if automated malware scanning actually worked, we'd already see big tech partnering with package registries to run continuous, ecosystem-wide scanning and detection pipelines. However, that isn't happening. Instead, we see piecemeal efforts from Google with assurance artifacts (SLSA provenance, SBOMs, verifiable builds), Microsoft sponsoring OSS maintainers, Facebook donating to package registries. Google's initiatives stop short of claiming they can automatically detect malware.

This distinction matters. Malware detection is, in the general case, an undecidable problem (think halting problem and Rice theorem). No amount of static or dynamic scanning can guarantee catching malicious logic in arbitrary code. At best, scanners detect known signatures, patterns, or anomalies. They can't prove absence of malicious behavior.

So the reality is: if Google's assurance artifacts stop short of claiming automated malware detection is feasible, it's a stretch for anyone else to suggest registries could achieve it "if they just had more resources." The problem space itself is the blocker, not just lack of infra or resources.

> But, if automated malware scanning actually worked, we'd already see big tech partnering with package registries to run continuous, ecosystem-wide scanning and detection pipelines.

I think this sort of thought process is misguided.

We do see continuous, ecosystem-wide scanning and detection pipelines. For example, GitHub does support DependaBot, which runs supply chain checks.

https://github.com/dependabot

What you don't see is magical rabbits being pulled out of top hats. The industry has decades of experience with anti-malware tools in contexts where said malware runs in spite of not being explicitly provided deployment or execution permissions. And yet it deploys and runs. What do you expect if you make code intentionally installable and deployable, and capable of sending HTTP requests to send and receive any kind of data?

Contrary to what you are implying, this is not a simple problem with straight-forward solutions. The security model has been highly reliant on the role of gatekeepers, both in producer and consumer sides. However, the last batch of popular supply chain attacks circumvented the only failsafe in place. Beyond this point, you just have a module that runs unspecified code, just like any other module.

The latest incident was detected first by an individual researcher (haven't verified this myself, but trusting you here) -- or maybe s/he was just the fastest reporter in the west. Even simple heuristics like the sudden addition of high-entropy code would have caught the most recent attacks, and obviously there are much better methods too.
In the case of the chalk/debug etc hack, the first detection seemed to come from a CI build failure it caused: https://jdstaerk.substack.com/p/we-just-found-malicious-code...

> It started with a cryptic build failure in our CI/CD pipeline, which my colleague noticed

> This seemingly minor error was the first sign of a sophisticated supply chain attack. We traced the failure to a small dependency, error-ex. Our package-lock.json specified the stable version 1.3.2 or newer, so it installed the latest version 1.3.3, which got published just a few minutes earlier.

> Our package-lock.json specified the stable version 1.3.2 or newer

Is that possible? I thought the lock files restricted to a specific version with an integrity check hash. Is it possible that it would install a newer version which doesn't match the hash in the lock file? Do they just mean package.json here?

If they were for some reason doing `npm install` rather than `npm ci`, then `npm install` does update packages in the lock file. Personally I always found that confusing, and yarn/pnpm don't behave that way. I think most people do `npm ci` in CI, unless they are using CI to specifically test if `npm install` still works, which I guess maybe would be a good idea if you use npm since it doesn't like obeying the lock file.
How does this get repeated over and over, when it's simply not true? At least not anymore. npm install will only update the lockfile if you make changes to your package.json. Otherwise, it will install the versions from the lockfile.
Since nobody else answers your question:

> Do they just mean package.json here?

Yes, most likely. A package-lock.json always specifies an exact version with hash and not a "version X or newer".

> Is that possible?

This comes up every time npm install is discussed. Yes, npm install will "ignore" your lockfile and install the latest dependancies it can that satisfy the constraints of your package.json. Yes, you should use npm clean-install. One shortcoming is the implementation insists on deleteing the entire node_modules folder, so package installs can actually take quite a bit of time, even when all the packages are being served from the npm disk cache: https://github.com/npm/cli/issues/564

If only there was a high-ranking official at Microsoft, who could prioritize security[1]! /s

[1] https://blogs.microsoft.com/blog/2024/05/03/prioritizing-sec...

Also, if everyone is going to wait 3 days before installing the latest version of a compromised package, it will take more than 3 days to broadly disseminate the fix for a compromise in the wild. The knife cuts both ways.
Not really, app sec companies scan npm constantly for updated packages to check for malware. Many attacks get caught that way. e.g. the debug + chalk supply chain attack was caught like this: https://www.aikido.dev/blog/npm-debug-and-chalk-packages-com...
The chalk+debug+error-ex maintainer probably would have noticed a few hours later when they got home and saw a bunch of "Successfully published" emails from npm that they didn't trigger.
1) Checks and audits will still happen (if they are happening at all)

2) Real chances for owners to notice they have been compromised

3) Adopt early before that commons is fully tragedy-ed.

thats what npm is for, so they install it first. cannon fodders.

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