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The question really isn't whether we should be able to modify computers we own, its whether we own them at all.

The question of how private property, intellectual property and posession/ownership should work is indeed something humanity hasn't properly figured out yet.

But if anything, regular people should have more of the cake.

We have! The only problem is a very limited amount of legal decisions accidentally paved the way for a massive dystopia. In particular, the first sale doctrine [1] solves everything immediately.

The courts assumed good faith with a licensing exception, and maybe it was. But that opened the door to essentially completely dismantle the first-sale doctrine. Get rid of that loophole and all this stupidity ends, immediately. Well that and the DMCA. Once you buy something, it's yours to do whatever you want to do with it short of replicating it for commercial benefit.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine

We also need regulation to prevent unbreakable hardware locks. Integrating the locks deep into VLSI makes removing them unrealistic.

As a more specific way to do this, I'd like to see any software that hardware companies make for their own hardware designated (at the choice of the company) as either part of the hardware or a separate product. In the former case, it must be made available under GPLv3 with full anti-tivoization provisions. In the latter case, it must use only public and documented interfaces and must be completely realistic for another company to make a competing product on a level playing field. Ideally the separate products would also need to be highly cross platform if technically feasible where the burden of showing that it isn't is on the developer.

I'm not sure if we need regulations preventing it as much as we need regulations that manufacturers have to make it clear before buying the product.

Informed consent goes a long way.

Most users don't understand the higher order effects of lack of ownership, if they care at all when it doesn't impact convenience in an obvious way. This information already exists before purchase, but it doesn't move sales among the masses where the money is made. The result is zero viable ownership respecting products for those of us who care: all modern CPUs have IME or equivalent, all modern cars are infested with proprietary spyware, all phones at reasonable prices¹ don't fully embrace user ownership in various ways. This also has higher order effects that affect everyone, such as car insurance having an involuntary data mine on anyone who drives a modern car.

1: the exception that I'm thinking of here is fair phone, and it isn't much of an exception.

You might be right. We're seeing a paradox of more and more exclusive ownership of property for commercial interests (land, water, airwaves, orbits) and fewer and fewer exclusive ownership for individuals (rented homes, licensed software, subscriptions etc). I too think we're still in a transition stage and humanity has yet to figure this thing out.
It's actually what Marx was warning about - private property ending in the hands of the few as an endgame of capitalism.
Was Marx really warning us? I always read that as him describing his strategy to take down capitalism.

I.e. a warning would be if he didn't want it to happen, but my understanding is that he very much did.

Well, I think it was both. He saw the problem (of capital accumulation in capitalism), and predicted a failure of it (due to people wisening up and taking action to fix the problem). Of course he wanted corrective action to happen - he didn't want people to suffer.

And the people did rise up and successfully tried to fix the problem - there was a big socialdemocratic movement that culminated between the world wars.

What he underestimated was the ingenuity with which the capitalism reinvents itself (and creates new forms of private property to gobble up - free computing in RMS's sense just one example). He also overestimated ability of most people to understand the problem (it's lot more lack of emotional rather than intellectual capacity). I would say alienation is central to Marx, unfortunately alienated people can be so indoctrinated to fail to consider the alternatives. Most people seem to prefer to suffer through hardship rather than demand an alternative solution.

It's not we haven't figured it out. It is that gov and corp prefer to be shepherds and we are OK to be sheep. We figured it out a long time ago.
The solution certainly won't be through legislative or judicative powers as they have failed predictably and repeatedly. Sometimes reality must be molded a bit of fait accompli.
What are you proposing if not legislative or judicial means?

Those are the only checks of power on the executive built into our system. Are you expecting we would have to throw out our political system all together, get rid of the top by force, and start over?

No - private property is clear.

The question that hasn't fully been worked is how to allow people to think/feel they own something, while having no actual legal rights to it. But, as we see, this is being worked on.

Record companies figured that one out a long time ago.
Throwing your hat in the political ring?
And the answer is we don't. If we can't run our own software, then we do not own the computer. To run software of our choosing we need the cryptographic keys to the machine and we sure as hell don't own those keys.
regardless of what the corporations say we do own the devices we purchase.
Not always. There have been car manufacturers that sold vehicles with features only enabled by a subscription. You may buy a car with heated seats, but the heated seats only work if the manufacturer enables them.
And there should be no law against enabling the heated seats in the car you own without interacting with the manufacturer.
Laws can be interpreted in such a way that invites robber barons to pound sand, or repealed.
The heated seat is an edge case, but there is also the entirely valid argument that you shouldn't be able to arbitrarily modify your car (e.g. replace the breaks with some home-grown solution), as it can put yourself and others in danger, and I see no evil in that being enforced by the government. A more IT-related example might be what radio frequencies can we use - if anyone could spam the whole spectrum, we would lose more than from the "freedom" of being able to do that.

So it's actually far from trivial to draw a line.

You are permitted to change whatever you like on your car, subject to a roadworthiness inspection by the relevant transit authority.

Cargo van -> Camper van conversions go through this all the time - you add/remove seats, add a lot of weight in the form of beds, water tanks, etc. add/remove windows, put solar panels on the roof... After those changes you have to take it down to the vehicle inspection, and they tell you whether or not your changes have been deemed acceptable to drive on public roads.

> there is also the entirely valid argument that you shouldn't be able to arbitrarily modify your car

In at least two european countries that I know of (but probably in all of them) cars need to pass periodic technical inspection to be allowed on the road. Breaks are tested, among other things.

> replace the br[ake]s with some home-grown solution

Funny you mention the brakes, because a friend of mine told me just days ago that he used to change his own brakes consumables (pads) until the new car, which "throws an error" if you replace the part - you have to go to an official service office for the computer configuration.

Now, do not forget that the need for the intervention of third parties lowers the car reliability ("far away", "too expensive", "device too old", "operation failure", "inexperienced operator" etc.).

This should show that your argument has difficult sides. Of course you should be able to act on your critical possessions. It should be within a good framework, but it should be fully, practically possible.

John Deere tractors have been terrible about this for years now. Not just for brakes, effectively any problem with the tractor requires specific software to diagnose and the tractor electronics are designed to keep the tractor immobilized until a Deere technician plugs the right software in and then repairs whatever broke in the first place.
Vanishingly few people want to crash their car due to sub-par breaks. If someone is malicious, the physical access to the car is going to be enough to not stop them and murder is already illegal. So, is this a real issue? If it is, is regulating this the most effective choice for what to regulate to increase safety or are other things more hazardous? Removing freedom and creating mandatory bureaucracy shouldn't be done over imaginary issues.
It's trivially easy to draw the line. If it's to be illegal to make some modification to your car then that law is to be enforced by the government rather than the manufacturer.
> but there is also the entirely valid argument that you shouldn't be able to arbitrarily modify your car (e.g. replace the breaks with some home-grown solution), as it can put yourself and others in danger,

That is a nonsensical argument.

"You shouldn't be able to put anyone else in danger" - agreed.

"You shouldn't be able to modify your car" - wtf does that have to do with danger?

"Modifying brakes (not breaks)" is not the same thing as "Putting people in danger". Sometimes we modify them to have better braking than the standard.

What countries actually do is test the end-result, i.e. Does the car conform to the legally mandated required braking performance?

Rather than campaign to stop people from owning property anymore, maybe just enforce the existing laws (which, as far as I know, are enforced already anyway).

This campaign to divide people into an owning class and a servile class is pretty damn repugnant, and "Because someone can be harmed if we allow people to own things" is just the new "But think of the children" nonsense.

It should be up to the individual to decide whether they want to modify their car.

Say you put aftermarket brakes on your car and they fail, causing an accident that harms someone else. The person who changed their brakes should be held liable legally, its as simple as that. Owners that choose to change their car and do a piss poor job of it are held accountable for their actions and others considering similar modifications can choose to learn the lesson.

Yes that means people could be harmed in the process, but regulations themselves harm people too. There's no way around the fact that one way or another people may get harmed during their lifetime. In the long run regulations just guarantee that, should the wrong people take power, the regulations and authority that originally allowed regulations will be abused.

I'm actually surprised I haven't seen more push back on government authority given everything Trump is either doing or claiming he will do. The president should be largely an anemic office acting more as a figurehead than anything else. We've given them the power to effectively legislate with no oversight, that why he may be able to do so much harm.

This is the same argument people make between Apple and Android.

Can I use an Android phone without using Google? Yes, of course you can. There are plenty of secure OS's like Graphen, Lineage, Calyx and many others. Do people really care enough to use them? Hardly any, which proves my point.

Same thing here. Most people will just pay the fee to get the seats. Some might just opt out and not get them. Others will shop around and find some legacy cars that are older that have them but don't require a subscription.

At the end of the day? There's ALWAYS a choice. How hard do you want to look to avoid the subscription? Is it really worth your time and effort? Some would say yes, the vast majority really DGAF. People have been lulled into not caring about stuff like personal privacy and having a say in what's being peddled to you.

There's always a choice… unless you want to access your bank account that is. In which case there is no choice but to use the official unrooted android OS.
You can still find banks that have physical buildings for retail customers as well as online portals to login and manage your account. Mobile apps aren't absolutely a must.
You can also hunt your food and use candles to produce light, but can you realistically do that?
Am I the only one that found that to be a reasonable edge case?

The seat heating was apparently shortening the life of the leather seats. Its cheaper to include heated seats in all cars, than it is to maintain 2 different sets of production. The subscription basically offsets the cost of needing to replace the seats more frequently when the heating is enabled.

Likewise, if you manually enabled the seat heaters, then complained that the seats were falling apart quickly, having given you a legal out to get that feature enabled in warranty, would not have to replace your seats for free.

Not to mention, they apparently already ditched the subscription over backlash.

> The subscription basically offsets the cost of needing to replace the seats more frequently when the heating is enabled

I never heard of car-manufacturers periodically replacing seats within warranty because of the wear of the material, regardless of being "more frequently" or not. This sounds like a massive oversight in product-design.

Of all the cases I know, the customer had to bear the cost of such "wear and tear" cases.

That tracks. Dodge seats from the 90s and early 00s were absolutely terrible. I swear half of them came from the factory torn on the outside of the drivers seat just from the delivery driver getting in to drop the truck off at the dealership.
How about automated high/low beam switching or enabling the nominal power of your car instead of handicapping it by default?

If you agree that above are edge cases too, I have a Volkswagen to sell you [0].

[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQNeIcQXy74

>How about automated high/low beam switching

I would want the ability to change that. I actually think I can mess with that on my car.

>enabling the nominal power of your car instead of handicapping it by default?

Big topic for me. My car has a DPF, and appears to have been geared such that despite containing an automatic DPF burn process, the engine never quite reaches the required temperature, so I need to perform manual burns.

I have straight up asked the dealer for a method to enable the auto burn process, manually. And have asked if theres a retune available, to make the gearing just a little bit less efficient, giving me more power and more engine heat.

The issue, pretty much verbatim from their head regional diesel mechanic is that any modifications of that nature would fuck the emissions standards they had to limbo under. So its categorically denied. They also issued me with stern official warnings that anything I do to make the car more reliable may also void my warranty. And the unofficial advice I have received is that the DPF is "f*cked mate" and to "get the petrol hybrid before the government forces it to wear a similar PPF"

The car also very suspiciously moderates the engine output unrelated to gearing/tune. Just sometimes underperforms at random. I believe its computational again, like you say, handicapping it for emissions reasons.

These things are largely optional for me, but I wont mess with them too much until I am out of warranty.

In a legal sense, yes. In a practical and technical sense, no.
Ok, let's say you own an iPhone. Please try install alternative OS on your iPhone, if you succeed, you own your phone.
The contention point will be whether you purchased the device or not.
This is a ridiculous take.
The thing is most people do not want to mess with computers. They are terrified they are going to break them. Frankly they are not wrong. I spent yesterday just trying to get a div tag to flow correctly with all the objects around it, a whole day down the drain. I have a pretty good idea what I am doing. However, for others these things we call computers are inscrutable devices that just 'decide' to do something wrong. We have built this https://xkcd.com/2347/ and expect everyone to be cool with it. Most people most certainly are not, and are willing to give away whatever just to make it easier to use, and not randomly screw up. Apple and Google can take whatever they gave away now because well most people really do not care. The rest of us can pound sand for all they care. We effectively have a duopoly and they are acting exactly in the manor of that.

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