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baron816 parent
I’m optimistic about humanoid robotics, but I’m curious about the reliability issue. Biological limbs and hands are quite miraculous when you consider that they are able to constantly interact with the world, which entails some natural wear and tear, but then constantly heal themselves.

gene-h
Industrial robots at least are very reliable, MTBF is often upwards of 100,000 hours[0]. Industrial robots are optimized to be as reliable as possible because the longer they last and less often they need to be fixed, the more profitable they are. In fact, German and Japanese companies came to dominate the industrial robotics market because they focused on reliability. They developed rotary electric actuators that were more reliable. Cincinnati Millicron(US) was out competed in the industrial robot market because although their hydraulic robots were strong, they were less reliable.

I am personally a bit skeptical of anthropormophic hands achieving similarly high reliability. There's just too many small parts that need to withstand high forces.

[0]https://robotsdoneright.com/Articles/what-are-the-different-...

ragebol
If you E-stop an industrial robot, it stops immediately, all OK. If a humanoid were to freeze like that, it would fall over and hurt you and your stuff on the way down, when it'll damage itself.

Mechanical reliability is not the main concern IMO

marinmania
It does either get very exciting or very spooky thinking of the possibilities in the near future.

I had always assumed that such a robot would be very specific (like a cleaning robot) but it does seem like by the time they are ready they will be very generalizable.

I know they would require quite a few sensors and motors, but compared to self-driving cars their liability would be less and they would use far less material.

fragmede
The exciting part comes when two robots are able to do repairs on each other.
marinmania
I think this is the spooky part. I feel dumb saying it, but is there a point where they are able to coordinate and build a factory to build chips/more of themselves? Or other things entirely?
bamboozled
Of course there is
But this still has a massive cost. Replacing or repairing an actuator isn't cheap, in material and in time of unavailability.
jacobaul
To maybe get a little carried away with the sci-fi for a minute, why does the Actuator need to cost anything?

When the tree of costs that make up a product are traced, surely all the leaf nodes are human labour? As in, to make the actuator, I had to pay someone to assemble it and I had to buy the parts. Each part had a materials cost and a labour cost. So it goes for the factory that made the fasteners, the foundry that made the steel, the mine that extracted the ore.

Shudder to think of how to regulate resource extraction in a future where AI humanoid robots are strip mining and logging for free.

david-gpu
> When the tree of costs that make up a product are traced, surely all the leaf nodes are human labour?

What about energy, real estate and taxes?

Even at the extreme end of automation, if you want iron ore, you need to buy a mine from somebody, pay taxes on it, and power the machines to extract the minerals and transport them elsewhere for processing.

pryelluw
2 bots 1 bolt ?
UltraSane
Consumable components could be automatically replaced by other robots.
didip
I think those problems can be solved with further research in material science, no? Combined that with very responsive but low torque servos, I think this is a solvable problem.
michaelt
It's a simple matter of the number of motors you have. [1]

Assume every motor has a 1% failure rate per year.

A boring wheeled roomba has 3 motors. That's a 2.9% failure rate per year, and 8.6% failures over 3 years.

Assume a humanoid robot has 43 motors. That gives you a 35% failure rate per year, and 73% over 3 years. That ain't good.

And not only is the humanoid robot less reliable, it's also 14.3x the price - because it's got 14.3x as many motors in it.

[1] And bearings and encoders and gearboxes and control boards and stuff... but they're largely proportional to the number of motors.

mewpmewp2
Would it be possible to reduce the failure rates?
ac29
The 1%/year failure rate appears to just be made up. There are plenty of electric motors that dont have anywhere near that failure rate (at least during the expected service life, failure rates certainly will probably hit 1%/year or higher eventually).

For example, do the motors in hard drives fail anywhere close to 1% a year in the first ~5 years? Backblaze data gives a total drive failure rate around 1% and I imagine most of those are not due to failure of motors.

michaelt
Yes, obviously that 1% figure is a simplification. Of course not all motors are created equal, and neither are all operating conditions!

But the neat thing about my argument is it holds true regardless of the underlying failure rate!

So long as your per-motor annual failure rate is >0, 43x it will be bigger than 3x it.

mrheosuper
your calculation is true, but the absolute number is needed here.

43x of 1% failure rate is tragic, but 43x of 0.1% is acceptable in my book.

michaelt
To an extent, yes.

For example, an industrial robot arm with 6 motors achieves much higher reliability than a consumer roomba with 3 motors. They do this with more metal parts, more precision machining, much more generous design tolerances, and suchlike. Which they can afford by charging 100x as much per unit.

bamboozled
Also factory robots arms are probably operating in highly sterile, dry environments? How would working in a muddy / dusty / wet environment change this?
elcritch
With more motors and joints also comes some degree of redundancy however. Having multiple fingers means one finger dying won't be as big of an impedement. It'd require feedback and the ability for the motion planner / AI to account for it.

Plus they'll likely be modular and able to be replaced.

IMHO, the bigger design issue for humanistic is lowering the need for mechanical precision which requires lots more metals and instead using adaptive feedback and sensors to obtain accuracy similar to how humans and animals do it. AIs should be really good at that, eventually. I think the compute will need to be about 10x what it is now though.

bamboozled
I'm interested how differences with robots work overtime, there are a lot of machines in this world that have been patched or "jimmied up" to continue working, let's say a mining robot, it would probably get quite heavily contaminated with dust, wear would occur in different places, rock falls might bend parts.

So even though another robot could probably do the "jimmy up". it seems like overtime, the robots will "drift" into all being a bit different.

Even commercial airlines seem to go through fairly unique repairs from things like collisions with objects, tail strikes etc.

Maybe it's just easier to recycle robots?

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