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That reads like something written pre LLM, pre mass layoffs and pre section 174. Reality is that engineers have way less bargaining power that they used to.

Aside, as a small startup I am generally upfront with the salary since if you are not in the range we can afford it is not worth having a discussion.


mgraczyk
If you have ~5+ years of experience and live in the US, things haven't changed. Regardless, negotiating matters more than ever.

At startups you negotiate for equity instead of salary but a lot of the same advice applies.

Startups also have more non-cash options. E.g. they can offer more than 4 weeks of vacation, unlike many enterprise companies. As a CEO, when I gave people 6 weeks of real vacation, they would never leave, since they cannot get that at bigger companies in the US. (We also stongly encouraged them to use their vacation, because a healthy work-life balance is better for the company.) Startups also have more flexibility on WFH, travel options, and other non-cash benefits like providing more authority over your schedule and tasks. They are typically strapped for cash, unless they are not actually startups anymore because they raised $100M, and just like the moniker.
autarch
I'm working at a mid-size company, c. 5,500 employees. We have unlimited vacation (for US employees). I have taken about 6 weeks every year with no issues. I made sure to check that this was okay before accepting the offer, because unlimited can also mean "no one ever takes vacation".
The problem with unlimited vacation is that the majority of engineers never have the guts to ask for it, just like they don't know how to negotiate. Unlimited vacation is a benefit for the company not the employee. It avoids taxes and complications due to carryover constraints.
autarch
To clarify, unlimited vacation is the company policy for all US employees. I'm just saying you don't need to work at a startup to get 6 weeks PTO.
0x5f3759df-i
Maybe if you have 5+ years experience at FAANG or something.

I have 5+ years experience at a no name place and can’t even get an interview anywhere. Maybe my resume is shit but I’ve tried many different versions with no luck in the last 4-5 months.

braden-lk
There's been this vein of advice from the past decade that's in the realm of "just work at FAANG". Always rubbed me the wrong way; they make it sound so easy, lol. The couple of interviews I managed to get after hundreds of ghostings, I was absolutely demolished in the interviews. It seems like if you get nervous doing math problems in front of people who really don't want to be there (and tell you to your face), you don't get to work at FAANG.

Just started my own business instead.

marcinzm
Theres a difference between something being easy, and something being achievable given a large investment of time and effort. FAANG is the second. Not for everyone but if you have anxiety then practice, therapy and possibly prescribed medications for anxiety. I’m sure there whole groups of people who mutually pair mock interview to get over anxiety like this. Or that you can pay to interview you.
braden-lk
Totally; and big respect to the people who put in hundreds of hours of prep. I did leetcode, practice interviews, 4.0 gpa, all that. I think the big hang up for me was, no matter how many practice interviews I did, there were only 4 real ones, with long waiting periods between attempts. And honestly... 3/4 my FAANG interviewers were really rude/late/apathetic. I actually did make it to second round at Google on the third try, but at that point I was so exhausted with the process, I took an offer from a company that at least pretended to give a shit whether I joined them or not. Had a wonderful 3 years there building green-field B2C products.

Getting some work experience and then starting my own thing was a better fit for me.

MichaelZuo
Clearly the advice can’t be for the literal 50th percentile HN reader in 2025… because nowadays there are hundreds of thousands of readers.

And all the FAANG combined probably don’t even have half that many positions, with negotiable salaries, in total worldwide.

devnullbrain
Yes. If advice can't be followed, it's probably just bragging.
rsanek
i mean, even if we only include Apple Microsoft and Google you're already up to more than half a million employees
mgraczyk
You may want to try moving to the bay area or NYC for a few years if you're not already in one of those places. It's much easier to get a good job, then you can move away after you have the "right" experience. Also follow the advice in the article, in particular find people you want to work for and DM them
ikiris
Startup equity is the equivalent to the old Foxworthy bit

"You can't write me a check?" I said, "No, I -- a check? Hell yeah, I can write you a check! I thought you needed money. Tell you what, I'm just gonna pay the whole thing off right now! I'm gonna be a congressman when I grow up."

mgraczyk
It's not really, because it's finite. You don't generally dilute the options pool when you hire new employees, you give them some slice of a scarce options pool
achierius
Sure, but there's an extent to which the the board and its constitutive shareholders already expect to be giving away options for new employees, and as such will have allocated a pool for such purpose -- both for the "standard" package, and for "hard negotiators". For traditional tech startups (i.e. ones not so flush with cash as OpenAI), giving these away is far easier than giving away more real-world, honest-to-god cashflow, because that directly drains your runway, while all equity does is make your cap sheet look marginally worse.
mgraczyk
> all equity does is make your cap sheet look marginally worse

But at the time the employee is negotiating this has already been decided. The company has some valuation and you are offering some known percentage of that scarce resource. You could argue that the valuation itself is the thing being manipulated (which is partially true), but that doesn't change the cost of the offer to the company in units of equity %

paulddraper
My bank account says otherwise, but it depends.
ikiris
So do all the lottery winners. It doesn't really change how a lottery works, or the likely financial result.
mgraczyk
What fraction of lottery participants win, vs startup employees? It's rare and there is luck, but the quantities matter. You are much more likely to make money from a startup and it's much more under your control as an employee
paulddraper
Of course.

Also…the lottery and startups work very differently.

coleca
Yes, the lottery has rules and governance. It's a much safer bet. Startups can decide to devalue their employees' shares. I'd venture that the odds are at least stated on the back of the ticket with the lottery. Employees of privately held startups are often sold a dream of future riches that rarely happens. Even where there is an exit, often even founding employees get taken for a ride.
eadmund
> At startups you negotiate for equity instead of salary

Never take equity over salary. Equity at a startup is a lottery ticket. Would you agree to be paid $10,000 less for $10,000 in lottery tickets? For $20,000 in lottery tickets?

SoftTalker
Only consider equity if there is actually a market value for it. Early stage startups hand out equity options that likely will not ever be worth anything.
Trasmatta
Yeah, as someone with 10+ YOE, there seem to be tons of opportunities with good packages right now. Companies still seem to need lots of senior devs: the market looks much much harder for anyone with less experience right now
mixmastamyk
Do tell.
that's because it was written in 2012! The original essay is here: https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/ (Originally written: January 23, 2012)
jiveturkey
the author updated and republished it this year, and clearly thinks it is still relevant, post-mass-layoffs and post-section-174.
jiveturkey
the author updated and republished it this year, and clearly thinks it is still relevant.
onion2k
2012! is a very long way in the future.
dakiol
> Reality is that engineers have way less bargaining power that they used to

There is negotation power but only if you pass all the interview challenges. Only at that point you are in a position to name your number (of course you won't ask $500K when you know the company you are applying to pays around $200K... because you have done your previous research on that; you'll ask something between $200K and $250K and see how they react). Layoffs and AI hasn't change this (sure, thing, 5 years ago companies were hiring more and perhaps were more relaxed about this, but that didn't change the fact that you can only negotiate when they want you)

have-a-break
Honestly at work LLMs seemed to make me less productive. For side projects they help but I've seen papers indicating this is the case for industry.

We as engineers have let the recruiters and VC funding brainwash us into lower salaries. Kind of looking forward to a rebound.

rednafi
This is my experience too. All these LLMs and agents are great for bootstrapping projects faster than ever. They help immensely with bringing down the activation energy. So I do a lot more tinkering around in multiple languages that I wouldn’t have otherwise.

That said, once the project goes beyond a certain threshold, LLMs offer little more than a highly capable autocomplete. In larger codebases, the current context window is too small for the tools to even answer questions properly, let alone make any non-trivial changes.

Productivity starts going down once you try to use LLMs in a large codebase and expect them to be as helpful as they were in a smaller one. Often, these authoritative little shits will whirl you around in a doom loop and still won’t find any useful solution. And suddenly you find yourself having to clean up the mess.

I’d still say the productivity benefit is positive, but at the same time, the hype around these is bonkers. Employers are holding onto the hype cycle to bring down wages through FUD.

roncesvalles
>Productivity starts going down once you try to use LLMs in a large codebase and expect them to be as helpful as they were in a smaller one.

Exactly this. I've really tried to find use for LLMs in my big tech company SWE job and I just can't. The context is just too large, and not just the code context. In the time that I can "explain" everything to the LLM, keep iterating until it spits out something semi-useful and massage that into something I can merge, I'd rather just do the whole thing myself.

But it's amazing for greenfield personal projects.

bluefirebrand
> LLMs offer little more than a highly capable autocomplete

I find LLM autocomplete extremely annoying compared to traditional intellisense

It is wrong way more and I don't want multi-line autocomplete, it's too intrusive

GardenLetter27
Are you using Copilot or Cursor? I find Cursor's one pretty good. Although they just butchered their pricing :(
bluefirebrand
Cursor

It's more or less the same as intellisense most of the time, but occasionally it tries to guess an entire multi-line function and it throws me way off

I don't know if it's a matter of just sticking with it to learn like any new tool, or if it is just really not as useful as people say

One thing I've noticed is that with traditional intellisense it was often fast enough to get ahead of me so I could tab complete

Cursor is slower than me. Often I am typing faster than it can think, which makes it suggest things I'm already past.

casualscience
You need to setup the problem for the llm. If I am getting an error, I can normally piece together the 10k lines of relevant code much more quickly than I can track down the bug.

Llms are still a big speed boost there

roncesvalles
If you see an error and can't immediately Cmd+Shift+F an error code or something and jump to the exact line of code that threw the error, that's an engineering problem.
JonChesterfield
I'm decently excited about the new world of hugely increased quantity of terrible code. Not absolutely sure how to go mining yet but it has opportunity written all over it.
> Honestly at work LLMs seemed to make me less productive.

Significantly so! But the thrill of the gamble keeps me coming back, sadly.

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