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joe_the_user parent
I don't disagree that nuclear waste can be disposed of safely under good conditions[1].

But I think a fallacy to claim that natural phenomena should inherently be considered "environmentally safe" in human terms. There are coal seam fires that have been going on for centuries and the pollution of these is just as bad as the pollution generated by human created coal mine fires (and that's truly awful, a significant source of carbon pollution).

[1] The problem with nuclear reactors isn't that their pollution couldn't disposed of with ideal methods but that when they run by for-profit corporations, you will always have the company skirting the edge of what's safe 'cause corporations just go bankrupt with catastrophic events and so their risk-reward behavior isn't the risk-reward optima for humanity.


legitster
No one is saying that it's "inherently" safe but there are a lot of people who claim it is inherently unsafe which is clearly untrue.
glompers
> There are coal seam fires that have been going on for centuries and the pollution of these is just as bad as the pollution generated by human created coal mine fires (and that's truly awful, a significant source of carbon pollution).

Has CO2 fire suppression been unsuccessfully attempted in these seams? Since nobody is underground and we know how to inject CO2 into underground deposits at various pressures, it seems like it would be a good candidate. Plus, with rotary steerable drilling, we could come in laterally (from a safe location above ground) to as many depths of injection as necessary.

These are large coal seams with significant exposure to the atmosphere. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jharia_coalfield for an example. That excavator in the picture is not trying to put out the fire, it is just mining coal that happens to be burning. Spray some water, put out the fire and ship it off to customers.
recursivecaveat
Apparently in mines they are sometimes extinguished with nitrogen. For less contained ones, injecting water or mud, while trying to seal off the ground with impermeable clay to halt oxygen and hopefully choke the fumes. Their scope can be huge though, and they generate a lot of energy which can cause subsidence to open up new passages. The Centralia fire in the US is apparently 15km².
rkagerer
I have a question on rotary steerable drilling. I gather we're only talking about a degree or less of deflection on the steering head. But how does the km's long rest of the stack behind the head snake through the curves? Is it like rail cars, with a little bit of angular bend allowed at the connection of each segment?
Manuel_D
What are the conditions under which nuclear waste buried a mile deep in bedrock will post a risk to society?
bobmcnamara
1) the assumption that because something can be done safely it will be done safely

2) transportation to the site: https://static.ewg.org/files/nuclearwaste/plumes/national.pd...

3) exploding waste barrels due to corner cutting in kitty litter selection exposing surface workers and contaminating the work area - only 1/2 mile down but this type of accident is depth independent https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-new-mexico-nuclear-dump...

4) fires

5) lack of a safety culture

6) communicating to future peoples not to mine here

7) long term structural stability and management (ex: Morsleben radioactive waste repository and Schacht Asse II)

Manuel_D
2) I asked about waste buried in the ground, not in transit.

3) if a waste barrel explodes, somehow, underground how does the waste make it's way through a mile of bedrock?

4) Again, how does a fire bring the wast up through a mile of bedrock?

5) This is just a vague statement.

6) So the concern is that future society will forget that this is a waste site, mine a mile deep and retrieve waste, and never figure out that the waste is bad for them? This is rather specific hypothetical that IMO demonstrates just how hard it is for a nuclear waste site to result in contamination.

lostlogin
Regarding 3) and 4): Ground water contamination.
Manuel_D
You can dig in bedrock that has no groundwater.

Furthermore, naturally occurring uranium exists in groundwater and needs to be filtered out in places where levels exceed safe limits. So it's not like burying waste is creating a new problem: https://www.kqed.org/stateofhealth/120396/uranium-contaminat...

bobmcnamara
2/3/4) Please see historical data above regarding three burial sites. Practically today, these sites are built by mining.

5) Industry term. Operationalizing any significant system will involve human beings, and with it their workplace culture. You can read about it here: https://mshasafetyservices.com/fostering-a-culture-of-safety.... Many mining hese were written in blood.

6) No, the concern is that people may be harmed. You see we've lost track of radioactive waste in the past. And humans are remarkably curious. Often we've figured it out before anyone was harmed. Sometimes sadly not. But the harm is the concern, not the lack of knowledge of harm.

Manuel_D
The example you linked above is disposal of nuclear weapons waste, not nuclear power generation. This isn't even the same material (plutonium vs uranium). Sure, there were plenty of bad nuclear waste disposal programs in the early cold war, but this has quite limited relevance to nuclear power generation.

And again, the question remains how people may be harmed by nuclear waste buried in bedrock half a kilometer underground? A even if a buried waste canister spontaneously combusts, how does the waste make it through half a kilometer of rock? In order for an unknown harm to occur, harm first has to actually occur.

This kind of appeal to an unknown harm can be used to arbitrarily object to anything.

"We need to stop building solar panels and wind turbines because they have the potential to cause an unknown harm. You disagree that these systems have the potential to cause harm? Well of course you can't know this, because it's an unknown harm that we're trying to prevent. How can you possibly disprove the existence of an unknown harm?"

AtlasBarfed
I look forward to your revolutionary nuclear waste teleportation device.
AnthonyMouse
The primary transportation risk is that spent fuel contains cesium metal, which is reactive with air and water, so if you expose it to air you get a fire.

It seems like a pretty obvious solution to this would be to purposely do the reaction under controlled conditions before transporting it, so then you're transporting stable cesium compounds instead of elemental cesium metal.

Manuel_D
Teleportation? You dig a tunnel underground, put the waste there, and fill the tunnel. It's been done before, it's not revolutionary engineering: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onkalo_spent_nuclear_fuel_re...
pfdietz
If nuclear waste disposal were what is holding back nuclear energy, it would be in great shape. It's not a primary blocking problem.
roughly
Just to call it explicitly, because I think this is one of the big points of misunderstanding between pro- and anti-nuclear people (take that as a very rough categorization and not an accusation) -

There is a difference between “something can be done correctly” and “something is likely to be done correctly.” Nuclear advocates I’ve read tend to argue the former - it’s possible to have safe reactors, it’s possible to keep the waste sequestered safely, there’s not a technical reason why nuclear is inherently unsafe. Skeptics tend to be making a different argument - not that it’s not possible to do things safely and correctly, but that in our current late-capitalist milieu, it’s almost impossible that we _will_. It’s not an argument about capability, it’s an argument about will and what happens in bureaucracies, both public and private.

Terr_
Yeah, if waste management was as viable as proponents claim, places like Hanford [0] would already be an inactive site with a memorial park on top.

Whether it's technology, economics, or politics, clearly the state of the art is deficient because we currently have persistent deficiencies.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanford_Site

Manuel_D
It's politics. The US already built a waste site in Yucca Mountain, but never bothered to actually use it for political reasons.

Digging a shaft half a kilometer into bedrock and sealing it is not state of the art.

AtlasBarfed
It's kind of the nature of a heavily regulated safety industry. The industry comes to resent the safety regulations. And therefore they will fail.

It's not even a a matter of mundane human error when executing procedures over and over again.

It's that the entire managerial pyramid gradually and slowly erodes

sllabres
It's not a mile deep, but I think the depth isn't the problem here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asse_II_mine

Manuel_D
This is the one I was referring to, though I guess it's just over half a kilometer deep: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onkalo_spent_nuclear_fuel_re...

The Asse II site used an existing mine to avoid having to excavate a new tunnel, which subsequently flooded.

Loughla
Burying it in a cheaper place that happens to flood occasionally?
legitster
Insisting on only worst case scenarios is such a bad faith argument. OP specifically asked about deep repositories.

It would be like having a discussion about green energy and insisting that people should assume dams will fail or that blades are going to fly off of turbines.

brians (dead)
nec4b
>> The problem with nuclear reactors isn't that their pollution couldn't disposed of with ideal methods but that when they run by for-profit corporations, you will always have the company skirting the edge of what's safe 'cause corporations just go bankrupt with catastrophic events and so their risk-reward behavior isn't the risk-reward optima for humanity.

Chernobyl was state run.

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