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bobmcnamara parent
1) the assumption that because something can be done safely it will be done safely

2) transportation to the site: https://static.ewg.org/files/nuclearwaste/plumes/national.pd...

3) exploding waste barrels due to corner cutting in kitty litter selection exposing surface workers and contaminating the work area - only 1/2 mile down but this type of accident is depth independent https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-new-mexico-nuclear-dump...

4) fires

5) lack of a safety culture

6) communicating to future peoples not to mine here

7) long term structural stability and management (ex: Morsleben radioactive waste repository and Schacht Asse II)


Manuel_D
2) I asked about waste buried in the ground, not in transit.

3) if a waste barrel explodes, somehow, underground how does the waste make it's way through a mile of bedrock?

4) Again, how does a fire bring the wast up through a mile of bedrock?

5) This is just a vague statement.

6) So the concern is that future society will forget that this is a waste site, mine a mile deep and retrieve waste, and never figure out that the waste is bad for them? This is rather specific hypothetical that IMO demonstrates just how hard it is for a nuclear waste site to result in contamination.

lostlogin
Regarding 3) and 4): Ground water contamination.
Manuel_D
You can dig in bedrock that has no groundwater.

Furthermore, naturally occurring uranium exists in groundwater and needs to be filtered out in places where levels exceed safe limits. So it's not like burying waste is creating a new problem: https://www.kqed.org/stateofhealth/120396/uranium-contaminat...

bobmcnamara OP
Heavy metal and radiological exposure is not a boolean safe/unsafe.
Manuel_D
Sure, but the important point is that we already have infrastructure deployed to detect and remove uranium from the water supply on account of naturally occurring uranium.
bobmcnamara OP
2/3/4) Please see historical data above regarding three burial sites. Practically today, these sites are built by mining.

5) Industry term. Operationalizing any significant system will involve human beings, and with it their workplace culture. You can read about it here: https://mshasafetyservices.com/fostering-a-culture-of-safety.... Many mining hese were written in blood.

6) No, the concern is that people may be harmed. You see we've lost track of radioactive waste in the past. And humans are remarkably curious. Often we've figured it out before anyone was harmed. Sometimes sadly not. But the harm is the concern, not the lack of knowledge of harm.

Manuel_D
The example you linked above is disposal of nuclear weapons waste, not nuclear power generation. This isn't even the same material (plutonium vs uranium). Sure, there were plenty of bad nuclear waste disposal programs in the early cold war, but this has quite limited relevance to nuclear power generation.

And again, the question remains how people may be harmed by nuclear waste buried in bedrock half a kilometer underground? A even if a buried waste canister spontaneously combusts, how does the waste make it through half a kilometer of rock? In order for an unknown harm to occur, harm first has to actually occur.

This kind of appeal to an unknown harm can be used to arbitrarily object to anything.

"We need to stop building solar panels and wind turbines because they have the potential to cause an unknown harm. You disagree that these systems have the potential to cause harm? Well of course you can't know this, because it's an unknown harm that we're trying to prevent. How can you possibly disprove the existence of an unknown harm?"

bobmcnamara OP
>> Nuclear power is an incredible technology, but understand that the nuclear industry has done little to earn trust. Just feels like an abusive ex plastered on the porch shouting "it'll be different this time I've changed" and doesn't inspire confidence.

> Care to elaborate on what you mean by this? Because even if you include Chernobyl, nuclear power is one of the safest form of energy generation: https://ourworldindata.org/safest-sources-of-energy. It's 100x safer than dams. Include only western plants and it's the safest form of energy generation.

I should also add that on average nuclear power releases less radioactivity than coal.

I grew up in a place and time where nuclear waste was routinely dumped, records lost, EPA government consultants lied, and people got sick. Nobody was held accountable other than token fines.

Manuel_D
> I grew up in a place and time where nuclear waste was routinely dumped, records lost, EPA government consultants lied, and people got sick. Nobody was held accountable other than token fines.

Can you provide even one example where nuclear waste from power generation - not nuclear weapons production - got people sick in the United States?

bobmcnamara OP
> This isn't even the same material (plutonium vs uranium).

Please note that these are both chemically and radioactively harmful to people.

> Sure, there were plenty of bad nuclear waste disposal programs in the early cold war, but this has quite limited relevance to nuclear power generation.

That's what they said in the 00s, 90s, 80s, 70s...

> In order for an unknown harm to occur, harm first has to actually occur.

Nuclear power is an incredible technology, but understand that the nuclear industry has done little to earn trust. Just feels like an abusive ex plastered on the porch shouting "it'll be difficult this time I've changed" and doesn't inspire confidence.

Manuel_D
> Please note that these are both chemically and radioactively harmful to people.

Again, the point is that your link is about disposal of plutonium from nuclear weapons productions. Not spent uranium fuel from power generation.

> Nuclear power is an incredible technology, but understand that the nuclear industry has done little to earn trust. Just feels like an abusive ex plastered on the porch shouting "it'll be difficult this time I've changed" and doesn't inspire confidence.

Care to elaborate on what you mean by this? Because even if you include Chernobyl, nuclear power is one of the safest form of energy generation: https://ourworldindata.org/safest-sources-of-energy. It's 100x safer than dams. Include only western plants and it's the safest form of energy generation.

It's not like an abusive ex promising to have changed. It's a lot more like a very respectful partner that your hippie friends hate for incoherent reasons.

AtlasBarfed
I look forward to your revolutionary nuclear waste teleportation device.
AnthonyMouse
The primary transportation risk is that spent fuel contains cesium metal, which is reactive with air and water, so if you expose it to air you get a fire.

It seems like a pretty obvious solution to this would be to purposely do the reaction under controlled conditions before transporting it, so then you're transporting stable cesium compounds instead of elemental cesium metal.

pfdietz
The cesium in spent fuel is not in the form of cesium metal. The cesium there is already oxidized to the +1 oxidation state, as it is in cesium salts.
AnthonyMouse
This is what I get for giving people the benefit of the doubt. Here's some text from that PDF the GP linked:

> Cesium will be the primary radionuclide released in a nuclear waste accident because it is present in what is called the fuel-clad gap. This gap is the space between the fuel pellets and the inside wall of the metal tube that contains the fuel. This “gap cesium” can be released in any event where the cladding is breached. Cesium is a highly reactive metal and even a small break in the seal will release significant amounts of it. Cesium burns spontaneously in air, and will explode when exposed to water.

Obviously the "highly reactive" applies to elemental cesium and is meant to imply that a collision would be a serious problem because exposing it to air would cause a big fire and release a plume of radioactive material. If that isn't the case then it seems like the thesis of the paper is rubbish?

pfdietz
The idea that cesium is present in metallic form is chemically very dubious.

Cesium is extremely reactive, as is noted. In particular, it will readily reduce U(+4) to U(+3). Nuclear reactor fuel is primarily uranium dioxide, so there is ample material there for this putative metallic cesium to react with. Cesium is the most electropositive element, so it will give electrons to (reduce) almost anything.

The state of cesium in the vapor gap will be relatively volatile cesium compounds, like cesium iodide. The core temperature of a uranium dioxide fuel pellet greatly exceeds the normal boiling point of this salt.

Manuel_D
Teleportation? You dig a tunnel underground, put the waste there, and fill the tunnel. It's been done before, it's not revolutionary engineering: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onkalo_spent_nuclear_fuel_re...
lukan
The point was, you cannot ignore the risks of transportation, if you only have some safe spots to burry it.

And what you linked is still under construction. We don't know yet, if it really works safe long term, or if there will be future costs.

Manuel_D
Finland has two other disposal sites in operation since the 90s: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_geological_repository
bobmcnamara OP
> It's been done before, it's not revolutionary engineering: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onkalo_spent_nuclear_fuel_re...

It's not even open yet.

Manuel_D
Finland has been operating two other sites for decades: https://www.hackerneue.com/item?id=44332413
bobmcnamara OP
Those aren't for reactor waste.
pfdietz
If nuclear waste disposal were what is holding back nuclear energy, it would be in great shape. It's not a primary blocking problem.
roughly
Just to call it explicitly, because I think this is one of the big points of misunderstanding between pro- and anti-nuclear people (take that as a very rough categorization and not an accusation) -

There is a difference between “something can be done correctly” and “something is likely to be done correctly.” Nuclear advocates I’ve read tend to argue the former - it’s possible to have safe reactors, it’s possible to keep the waste sequestered safely, there’s not a technical reason why nuclear is inherently unsafe. Skeptics tend to be making a different argument - not that it’s not possible to do things safely and correctly, but that in our current late-capitalist milieu, it’s almost impossible that we _will_. It’s not an argument about capability, it’s an argument about will and what happens in bureaucracies, both public and private.

Terr_
Yeah, if waste management was as viable as proponents claim, places like Hanford [0] would already be an inactive site with a memorial park on top.

Whether it's technology, economics, or politics, clearly the state of the art is deficient because we currently have persistent deficiencies.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanford_Site

Manuel_D
It's politics. The US already built a waste site in Yucca Mountain, but never bothered to actually use it for political reasons.

Digging a shaft half a kilometer into bedrock and sealing it is not state of the art.

AtlasBarfed
It's kind of the nature of a heavily regulated safety industry. The industry comes to resent the safety regulations. And therefore they will fail.

It's not even a a matter of mundane human error when executing procedures over and over again.

It's that the entire managerial pyramid gradually and slowly erodes

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