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pentagrama parent
This is great, but one UX issue I’ve always seen when trying to get regular Windows users to switch to Linux is the whole USB flash drive process and needing external tools like Rufus.

Take Ubuntu, for example. It’s one of the most popular and recommended distros for non-techy users, but just look at the install process: https://ubuntu.com/tutorials/install-ubuntu-desktop#1-overvi...

Let’s be honest, I don’t think most people would actually go through with that.

One idea to fix this and get more people to switch would be for Ubuntu to offer a Windows app that handles everything. It could download the ISO in the background, format the flash drive, install Ubuntu in dual boot with Windows by default, and clearly explain each step so users know how to start using Ubuntu or go back to Windows.


Idk why we need separate media anyways. Just resize the existing partition and create a new Linux recovery partition in place, reboot from that to install m. Or just run the whole installer in a VM on windows and then reboot to a completely working Linux system.

EDIT: Beyond skill, just getting the external media is a substantial friction. I haven't used a thumb drive besides for Linux install media in 15 years; I'm good at computers but just finding / buying one of those things is its own roadblock.

wat10000
Wubi runs on Windows and installs Ubuntu into a file: https://github.com/hakuna-m/wubiuefi

This sort of thing used to be more common. My first exposure to Linux was before CD-Rs were ubiquitous so there was often no possibility of using external media if you downloaded Linux. Partitioning the drive and installing there was typical.

It's the same model that both Apple and Microsoft use for their OS updates, especially when upgrading from "dark ages" version to the latest version. I just think that most Linux distro providers either don't have the resources or the passion for Windows programming to make & maintain the windows .exe part of the pathway. Wubi is neat, but living out of a file on an existing partition doesn't feel like a pathway to full-time Linux. But if it already exists and is maintained, why hasn't it become the standard approach for all distros?
baobun
You must have been in an interesting place if floppies was more limiting than bandwidth... Splitting the installer across multiple floppies would be more common for initial install I believe and you would only fill up to ∼2/h on great dialup.
devilbunny
I, at least, did Linux installs by downloading the floppy images to my campus account overnight and walking to the computer labs on campus to write them to disks (they had some NeXTstations that had floppy drives).
devilbunny
Can't edit so replying to myself. The campus itself used a 56k leased line for internet (1993-4) and their dialup pool of eight (!) modems for ~3000 students ran at 2400 bps. It was far faster to walk over to the labs with a stack of disks.

They were almost never all busy. Then in summer of '95 or so, they installed 100 Mbps Ethernet.

That was a big jump. And security was a huge afterthought at the time; many, many people shared their entire hard drive with no password. If only it had been a few years later with MP3's and affordable CD burners...

throwaway314155
> Idk why we need separate media anyways. Just resize the existing partition and create a new Linux recovery partition in place, reboot from that to install m. Or just run the whole installer in a VM on windows and then reboot to a completely working Linux system.

This is far from a simple solution (for the layman end-user) compared to the parent comment.

I mean InstallFedora.exe should do these operations automatically under the hood while showing a progress bar, and the user continues using their Windows desktop as normal until prompted to rebot, just like how InstallWindows11.exe works.
invalidptr
I never understood why it's so complicated. On Linux, you can make a liveusb as easily as `cat liveusb.iso > /dev/sdX`. I imagine there is a powershell equivalent. There is a risk of writing to the wrong drive, so some kind of utility is needed. But the actual write is trivial. Why not make a win32 executable with the iso embedded so users only need to download one thing and then run it to write the USB media?
badsectoracula
IIRC Rufus can actually download the necessary ISOs so it isn't THAT complicated.

On the other hand, if someone finds that part too complicated to follow perhaps they may not be able to install Linux - or Windows for that matter - by themselves and come across other issues down the line. Ultimately replacing your OS with another one does require some minimum level of technical knowledge that you either need to have or be fine with learning during the process.

kaicox
Yeah, the actual write is easy. The human part is the hard part.

Most people don’t want “tools” — they want a magic button with no guesswork, no fear of nuking the wrong drive, and no tutorial rabbit holes.

A win32 installer that bundles the ISO, sets up the USB, and gently walks you through the transition? That’s the move.

We don’t need smarter users. We need smoother defaults.

throwaway2087
Windows PowerShell does not have a direct, native equivalent to this specific operation. You have to use some combination of Clear-Disk,New-Partition,Format-Volume,Mount-DiskImage, and xcopy to do that
heavyset_go
> One idea to fix this and get more people to switch would be for Ubuntu to offer a Windows app that handles everything. It could download the ISO in the background, format the flash drive, install Ubuntu in dual boot with Windows by default, and clearly explain each step so users know how to start using Ubuntu or go back to Windows.

I am almost certain something like this existed 15-20 years ago from Canonical.

vermilingua
Likewise, I vividly remember running this and wondering "wow why did I spend so many late nights waiting for live CDs to install"
heavyset_go
There were weird caveats compared to a live CD install. No clue what they were but I remember skipping over it for a reason like that.
cosmic_cheese
I think it could also be worthwhile to figure out ways to:

- Avoid requiring the user to figure out how to get into BIOS/EFI and change boot order. Windows has APIs for manipulating EFI things, may be worth looking into that.

- Replace GRUB with something more modern like rEFInd or Clover with a nice looking theme.

For the latter point, while GRUB is technically functional, it looks scary and arcane to new users and has little resiliency to things like Windows updates mucking with boot entries. It makes for a bad first impression (“why is my computer showing hacker screens suddenly”) and when it breaks your average user doesn’t have a prayer of fixing it. Something that looks more modern and self-heals would be a big improvement.

bmicraft
> - Replace GRUB with something more modern like rEFInd or Clover with a nice looking theme.

Replace Grub with nothing. If you're not doing bootable snapshots like openSUSE, then there is virtually no benefit in a "boot loader". The linux kernel + cmdline (+other stuff like ucode or secure boot signing stuff) can easily be packed into a single bootable .efi file.

That efi file will then get an entry in your uefi boot device list just like windows already has/had. This way is better anyway, since windows will overwrite your uefi boot order with every significant update, meaning users will already need to know how to boot other os's.

cwillu
rEFInd is more or less exactly that.
Propelloni
And efistub is exactly what the GP wants. Reserve rEFInd and its ilk for Snapper setups.
How do you anticipate users choosing Windows or Linux at boot time without a bootloader?

If the idea is they go cold turkey full Linux, good luck with that.

if the idea is they use their UEFI firmware boot menu, you're forgetting how unintuitive that is for most users with most uefi interfaces (spam hotkey at boot, wait for slow loading uefi, navigate to subscreen with boot order, find right menu item, either reorder and save or press F-key combo to "boot once now")

bmicraft
I've not had a MB where you had to spam any key. Just hold it on boot and wait until you see the menu. Select the one you want to boot now with either mouse or keyboard. This doesn't usually change the default boot order.

If you managed to install linux then this really shouldn't be a thing to get hung up on.

If you don't understand why GRUB's (or refind or systemd-boot) boot menu is preferable to your UEFI interface, then I'm glad your solution works for you.
mindslight
Regular Windows users are also not going to reinstall Windows. I'd say this page does the right thing putting the "Find someone to help you" as the first option. Most people want something that just works, and it's a great value proposition to say "I'll take your old computer and turn it into a new device that works better".

The biggest sticking point is the fear of losing what they do have, but we're at the point where even their previous generation computer could be made to run Linux.

Re-installing Windows is trivial these days. You just click the item in the Start menu, it does some work, then reboots to the existing recover partition to finish up, restores your account, and you drop back to windows desktop after logging in again. If you have OneDrive enabled, you still see all your files.
mindslight
Does that actually completely blow away and reformat the filesystem? Meaning if you only have local files, they're then gone? From clicking an item on the Start menu?

I guess I'm not surprised with how frequently "reinstall Windows" is offered as a solution, that there is now some lighter version of that. But really I was talking about obtaining/creating installation media and reinstalling from scratch.

holowoodman
No, it doesn't really blow away anything. Just some copying around and over. Preserving all the malware, viruses, rootkits and stuff.

Except of course, licenses and copy protection. That stuff is gone and you have to buy it all again, since the install-id is regenerated.

You can choose "keep my files" or "remove everything", the remove everything version + "clean files" does actually remove everything. https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/reset-your-pc-0e...
dale_huevo
It's even more damning when you realize the Windows stage 1 installation process is essentially unchanged since Vista. The Linux people had nearly 20 years to straighten this out.

Installing Ubuntu bricked a Samsung laptop I had some years back. Never again.

Windows installation is only easier for non-technical users in that someone else (usually their laptop manufacturer) does it for them.
const_cast
> Installing Ubuntu bricked a Samsung laptop I had some years back. Never again.

What? How? I've never seen an installation break the BIOS. I'm sure it's possible, but I wonder what went wrong here.

bmicraft
Some buggy uefis can actually get bricked when clearing or writing to the wrong efivars. But blaming anything but the hardware manufacturer for is misguided to say the least.
throwaway314155
For me, at this point in my history of installing Linux, this is about as unsurprising as it gets. You've had an incredibly lucky history in this regard (or perhaps are younger than I am by 5-10 years).
bombela
I have never had such a problem. And I have been installing Linux (distros) since 2003.
throwaway314155
My point wasn't that you've had that specific issue but rather that similarly strange issues were/are incredibly common.
legacynl
Although I agree that it could be somewhat easier, I don't think it's possible to perform all necessary steps to create a working boot entry from within Windows, possibly any running OS.

I do think maybe it would be possible to improve the UX somewhat, what about having some app called "os changer" or some accessible user-friendly name, that shows a list of options with screenshots, short descriptions and perhaps some categorization/tagging/rating system (this one is good for gaming, this one has lots of support for old hardware, this one is user-friendly). Then if you select an option it starts to download the iso silently while it asks you to insert a usb-key, when you insert that key, it shows the contents if it's not empty along with a confirmation that it gets emptied. Hopefully after formatting the image has finished downloading, and it creates a bootable usb key from it. Possibly it could read system information to suggest a key to hold during boot, then reboot the system.

However you do it, I don't think there's any way around needing some intermediate to boot into. Come to think of it, maybe a live-distro where that intermediate basically is the eventual system seems very user friendly.

> and needing external tools like Rufus

Ubuntu and Linux Mint are now recommending balenaEtcher, which is easier to use than Rufus.

doublerabbit
While so, you have to download a program from somewhere. If I gave this to my mother she would just totally click the wrong link, infect her windows machine and give up.

For the tech, sure but for common people not so.

Why cannot Ubuntu just offer a download media creation tool like Windows does. Surely it's not that hard to couple dd with a batch gui.

i80and
weaksauce
looks like it’s not just for fedora either. though that is still a little more complicated than an all in one ubuntu/mint/whatever installer. maybe someone should fork it and/or add that to this.
blahlabs
Fedora media writer is fantastic. You're right, it can either automatically download a fedora iso, or you can just feed it any image. Its so simple and handy for me, to the point a recent foray back to Debian was cut short because there was no included equivalent and the alternatives were just a hassle.

Although, the `cat liveimage.iso > /dev/sdX` tip mentioned in this thread is very handy and is probably enough for me. Anything I can do without a distro specific tool is a win.

heavyset_go
I wouldn't expect a casual user to install Windows, drivers and supporting software on their own, either.

A fresh install of Windows on consumer laptops requires users to locate drivers and supporting software from the OEM's website and not infect themselves with malicious software in the process.

AllegedAlec
I use it but I'm very careful about it since it just puts hard drives and usb sticks into the same category. Most of the time that's fine but if you have hard drives smaller than the usb stick in your system it'll autoselect the hard drive instead and if you're not carefull you're fucking your live system.
7734128
And having to go through this insanity each time is even worse

https://blog.balena.io/did-etcher-break-my-usb-sd-card/

eyegor
Is this advice insane or am I missing something

> to fix your busted drive, just nuke the boot sector and send it

> bash

> dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/xxx bs=512 count=1 conv=notrunc

I often do that (with a larger prefix, like 1MB) to reset flash drives with weird partitioning.
dartharva
I noticed no difference in ease of use
zamadatix
Maybe something like https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Wubi again.
geek_at
Oh wow memory lane. I loved wubi, it was a game changer back then
canistel
An easier alternative is Ventoy. https://www.ventoy.net/en/index.html

Install Ventoy on a USB flash drive. Copy the ISO - copy as in cp. That's it.

You can add as many ISOs and select which one to boot with.

Ubuntu's Install medium supports secureboot. (As do many other Linux install mediums) I assume ventoy requires SB to be OFF, which does complicate things more, than just using Rufus.
Once when I was at FOSDEM I was checking out the OpenSUSE stand and one of the people at the stand gave me an OpenSUSE Leap DVD. Was pretty neat, though nowadays unfortunately many computers no longer have a DVD drive.
szszrk
In all honesty, how do you install windows? Aside from pre installed ones.

Most people I know does exactly the same. Takes Rufus or similar and downloads official image from Microsoft

You are not wrong, however in a pot calling kettle black moment have you seen what it take to make a windows bootable usb drive.

if you are on windows it is possible but involves ether going the hard route and downloading special tools from microsoft (the media creation utility) or the easy route and getting rufus.

on linux it is bewildering, however there are tools you can find that do it.

on openbsd(that's me, the weirdo using openbsd on the desktop) you are out of luck, I mean partially it is my fault, who even used obsd on the desktop. but when every single linux distro is "just dump this dvd image to a usb drive" and openbsd itself is "here is a usb image to dump to a drive" you have to wonder why microsoft makes it so difficult.

I ended up getting it done but after 30 minutes chewing through the linux script trying to get it to work on obsd went "this is not worth it for a task I am only going to do once" so booted a linux usb and used the script from there.

frollogaston
You're right, and I could've sworn Ubuntu had this at some point.
At one point they even had a thing that would install Ubuntu inside Windows.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wubi_(software)

frollogaston
That's pretty awesome.
more_corn
I don’t find the process of making install media that onerous.
akikoo
Here's one easy way to create the Windows USB stick installer in Linux:

https://atkdinosaurus.wordpress.com/2023/03/24/another-way-t...

artemonster
Take a look at a default emacs and how long it has been this way and you can quickly generate 200 plausible theories why everything sucks do much around this ecosystem. Tried 5 times going to u ubuntu in last 15 years. Everytime switched back because it sucked. Spending godless amounts of times googling obsucure problems that apprear out of thin air. No thanks. And with wsl2 I never have to look back
legacynl
I kind of had the same experience with all the ubuntu flavors, and other distros. Ubuntu kinda does too much. It tries to be a complete desktop replacement and as such comes with a lot of preconfigured software. If you have a non-standard wifi-chip or audio chip, or whatever component, it could be that any of those parts break, and you'll have a hell of a time finding out where it's coming from.

What worked for me was to try arch. With arch you basically start with nothing, and you build it up from there. It'll take a few hours reading the install process on the wiki, but it's otherwise very easy. In the end you'll have a full understanding of what is happening on your machine. When something happens you will know what program is causing it, because you installed and configured it yourself. Or at least it makes me feel like that, because nothing has ever actually broke or not worked on my current arch install that I'm using for over 8 years. My install seems to 'just work' and I can highly recommend it, even though the install process is a bit more involved.

The only problem with Arch is that it's not afraid to introduce breaking changes in their packages, so sometimes when updating, there could be some manual intervention involved. Best is to update at least once a week, and check the website once in a while.

> Take a look at a default emacs

Is that the default terminal editor on Ubuntu? I fully agree those text editors where typing doesn't enter text should never be the default. Something like nano should always be the default imo.

skeledrew
I had a couple failed starts moving to Ubuntu as well, years ago. Then I came across Zorin OS and that turned out to be a great bridge, followed by Kubuntu which I use to this day.
fr4nkr
...what does Emacs have to do with any of this? And how does running Linux in a Hyper-V virtual machine magically make it better?
legacynl
I'm pretty sure that a VM gets abstrations of the underlying hardware. And these abstractions are fully documented and as such the generic drivers bundled with any linux distro will work perfectly with it. Running on actual hardware requires hardware specific drivers. Generic drivers exist for many types of devices, but they might not be able to fully use the hardware (or at all), which can lead to some features/the os to not work out of the box on linux distros.

And I assume that he refers to that emacs is the default $EDITOR var on ubuntu? I don't know if that's true, but i think emacs is one of these editors which is seen as having very bad usability. I can't imagine that emacs is the default $EDITOR on a recent ubuntu version, but I agree with the sentiment that those kind of editors should never be the defualt.

artemonster
I thought it was a rather clear and obvious analogy how opinionated nerds hinder mass adoption of good FOSS products because user experience is dogshit.

„Running Linux in VM“ as you have put it, is miles better because it works all the time with 0 friction, driver issues, random freezes, reboots, etc.

fr4nkr
I understand the analogy, it's just ridiculous. You are conflating entirely unrelated things based on your personal feelings about them with no regard to historical or technical context.

Hardware support issues are certainly understandable, but blaming "opinionated nerds" for them is asinine. It cannot be understated how difficult it is to deal with certain OEMs.

legacynl
Although I totally get where you're coming from, and certainly agree that user-experience could improve by not setting unintuitive defaults like emacs or vi or whatever. But 'opinionated nerds' is a strawman. FOSS and Linux ecosystem isn't a big mass of like-minded people all deciding that user-experience isn't worth spending time on.

Let's not forget that computer science and programming initially has been a field for and by expert and academics. A lot of tools are written by experts, people that were used to writing and reading long documents with instructions, are intimately familiar with their systems, and often write similar software themselves too. Nowadays that have changed of course, but the field still has a lot of these experts.

And experts in any field often forget how it feels to not be an expert, and as such assume a lot of things to be obvious and often forget to mention or explain crucial things. But you can't expect every expert in some field to also be an expert in educational psychology, that is a whole field in itself. And even then, you might not have the creativity or writing prowess to write clear and intuitive documentation and pick variable and function names.

On top of that people are free to do what they want. That they work on this stuff publicly and make it available in itself is something worth of praise. They don't suddenly have the responsibility to make stuff easy to use for people who aren't at the same level like that.

A distribution like Ubuntu is in part basically a specific collection of all these free tools and software and presets. And maybe there doesn't exist a super user-friendly alternative for every one, and there is basically no incentive for people to spend free time making these.

Even if Ubuntu specifically states to be user-friendly (i don't know if they do), there are numerous valid reasons might exist for that. It could be that the rather spend their time refining and improving a often used part of the system. Or that they see the terminal in itself as an expert tool, and they rather have non-experts use the configuration that's available through the UI.

Although it's beside the point I think it's also important to realize that it's basically inevitable that there's going to be at least some difference between the quality of software that's free and open source, versus a company that has the ability to spend, and stands to profit from it. In my opinion the free part means infinite value and trumps any gap in quality or functionality.

Still agree that nano or something similar should be the default and vi or emacs should be an option.

heavyset_go
No one was ever going to mass adopt emacs lol

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