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This isn't an "if". And this shouldn't be shocking to anyone as Microsoft has EOL'ed all of it's previous OSes with a deadline.

You can buy extended support for orgs like yours that require it - https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/whats-new/extended...


anonymars
Has Microsoft ever EOLed an OS that was

1. in higher use than its successors

2. only had one possible successor

3. the successor did not support hardware in use at the time

?

I'm sure it won't stop them, as you say, but really Microsoft, as someone who used to be a (relatively rare at the time) defender of yours, get fucked. The Raymond Chen camp is truly dead (https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2004/06/13/how-microsoft-lost...)

p_ing OP
1. When has Microsoft cared (or have PCs been so abundant)?

2. ... I mean, that's every version of Windows. XP? Vista. Vista? 7, etc. The last time you had two choices of Windows was in the '90s.

3. It does support hardware in use 'at the time'. I upgraded from 10 to 11 on existing hardware.

If you mean older hardware, 98 and NT4 were the last to support the 486, yet 486s were still in use by the time of release of Me/2000 (I sadly had to interact with said 486s in a school lab). XP -> Vista made the jump from a Pentium 233Mhz minimum to 800Mhz minimum, /and/ caused many issues due to the introduction of WDDM causing a lot of graphics hardware to become incompatible.

This is nothing new. Those pulling the shocked pikachu face perhaps just haven't been around the Windows block enough to realize... this is nothing new.

> I upgraded from 10 to 11 on existing hardware.

Good for you. There is plenty of hardware out there without TPM 2.0, that is not allowed to upgrade, even if they in every other aspect are more than capable enough.

defrost
And there are many windows insiders publishing ways to bypass secure boot checks in order to install (or create check free installers) Win 11 on Win 10 capable hardware that lacks secure boot or Trusted Platform Module 2.0

Starting with this in 2021 https://christitus.com/update-any-pc-to-windows11/ and likely (I'd have to check) integrated into Chris Titus's WinUtil by now.

Some combo of tweaking registry values or zero sizing a DLL has done the trick so far (but perhaps not into the future with upgrades and patches).

anonymars
I think it's reasonable to say that for 99% of people this isn't a realistic solution. It's a time bomb that could go off at any patch. Related: https://www.tomshardware.com/software/windows/existing-worka...
anonymars
It also shows that these machines are going to be rendered obsolete for no particular technical reason, other than presumably to sell more machines. Line must go up.

Now let's have a long prattle about our environment stewardship: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/corporate-responsibility/sus...

anonymars
I don't know what timeline you are looking at. Windows 98 went EOL in 2006. By then there were Windows Me, Windows 2000, Windows XP. Windows 95 went EOL in 2002 so basically the same. Windows XP EOL: 2014. By then there were Windows Vista, Windows 7, 8. Windows 7 EOL: 2020. Obviously Windows 8 and 10 existed. And so on, up until 10 and 11.

> It does support hardware in use 'at the time'. I upgraded from 10 to 11 on existing hardware.

Of course it supports some hardware in use right now. But core requirements were generally just speed, now even if you have a fast processor, you're SOL if your system doesn't support TPM and specific models. Vista had more compatibility issues than usual with peripherals, but that's quite different from having to toss the whole machine. And even then: Vista was released in 2007. You had 7 more years to stay on XP.

Not only are we handwaving the obvious reality that hardware used to have a shorter effective life because it was advancing so rapidly, but the Pentium 233 came out in 1997. XP went EOL in 2014. That's almost 20 years of hardware support. My family has various machines from 2015, 2017, etc. that otherwise work perfectly fine but don't support W11. I have an older laptop with a 4 core (8 HT) 2.6 GHz CPU (3.6 Turbo) with a 1 TB SSD and 16 GB of RAM, amply powerful, but nope, no Windows 11.

p_ing OP
> But core requirements were generally just speed

Not just speed but instructions.

> you're SOL if your system doesn't support TPM and specific models

TPM support at this point in time is very old, roughly 7 years or so, along with processor model. Newer processors lack the appropriate features to support the security features of Windows 11, i.e. VBS.

New OSes have new features which require new hardware; new being highly relative here as it's quite old hardware at this point.

anonymars
That's great, now when in the past did Microsoft render obsolete hundreds of millions of machines for...what, exactly? VBS? When was the last time a Windows issue was a notable security threat? Is VBS going to keep people from getting phished?

In fact, let's compare this pointless consumer-hostile debacle with XP, where MS went out of their way to actually improve security by heavily revamping XP and keeping it alive longer than it would have been. Meanwhile, the obvious reality that's going to happen this time around is people are not going to throw out their machines, those machines are just going to stop getting security updates. Great work, Microsoft.

So really then, what is it you're trying to advocate, that this is all...good? Or is it just argument for argument's sake?

wat10000
That article is an interesting time capsule.

Microsoft (well, the Windows part) is looking more and more like the Apple and Sun in that article. It’s the #2 or #3 user-facing OS these days. The fancy new programming environment happened and most stuff moved there, but it’s JavaScript and the browser rather than C# and .NET. Running old software is becoming a niche and getting more so by the day.

anonymars
Yeah. Satya Nadella spelled out the strategy: cloud first, mobile first. Which, good for him and investors. But it feels like I can actually accomplish less and less with technology with each passing year, which is insane. It takes so much more effort to get anything done because everything is set up for tiny touch screens. And as someone who develops on the MS stack I spend so much more time dealing with version and dependency hell.

I've given up on my hobby projects because it was to the point where each time I got a few hours to look at them I'd spend it all doing updates or adjusting to deprecations.

One thing that struck me rereading Joel's article: those shiny new APIs he rattled off, indeed almost none of them gained any traction. And he was spot on about the UI framework fragmentation too.

Recently Windows Phone popped up and a lot of the same themes popped up, for example changing the SDKs repeatedly, charging for the privilege of using the app store (so much for giving the tools away), etc. I think part of the issue is that Apple somehow gets away with doing this sort of thing but Microsoft doesn't have anything close to the marketing chops to brainwash people into getting screwed over and liking it. Maybe because they go out of their way to make it a positive experience to buy new Apple products, rather than a trip to a dealership for a new car

https://www.hackerneue.com/item?id=44272078

wat10000
I wonder why they did so well with the Xbox but not Windows Phone. Clearly they're capable of launching a new platform and getting traction with it. Those are very different market segments but surely the general approaches needed aren't that far apart.
anonymars
Well, I feel like they haven't been doing as well recently (pause for a shoutout to classic MS naming acumen: Xbox 360 -> Xbox One -> Xbox One X / Xbox One S -> Xbox Series X / Xbox Series S. Good luck, mom! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKZ6rqsXhjo)

But perhaps one difference is that with consoles there's a free Sisyphean "reset" with each generation, which never happened with the phone. That gives a spot to enter the race.

Plus the whole thing with the phone carriers...in the US at least I'd wager that if the carriers don't offer your phone, and the salespeople don't talk it up (which phones are going to give the salesperson the most lucrative commission, by the way? Don't forget accessories...), then that's the ball game

anonymars
An additional fuck you to Microsoft for intending to brick Windows Mixed Reality headsets, also fairly unprecedented to do that in the middle of an OS lifecycle, such as they are now. More hardware to go into the trash while Microsoft pretends to care about the environment.

Fortunately there might be hope on that. Pathetic that it had to be someone presumably doing it on their own time, after all we know how resource-constrained a small business like Microsoft is

https://www.reddit.com/r/WindowsMR/comments/1l65ji8/things_a...

etbebl
Thanks for the link, I had forgotten this existed. Well, the university's technology roadmap officially states there is no support for Windows 10 after 2025. Yet as far as I know there is no program in place to help individual labs cover the cost of upgrading equipment. Maybe we will still be able to purchase an ESU package for our computers on an individual basis, but I'm not sure it will be made available by our software licensing office.
anticensor
I'm sure they will not offer it to office computers, but only to research laboratories.
nwellinghoff
You could always switch to the ltsc line. Been using ltsc iot and its pretty nice
anticensor
IoT LTSC technically doesn't support Win32, and Win32 components included in aren't guaranteed to work until the end of IoT support period.

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