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This is a gross violation of some of our most sacred principles.

throwawayq3423
Yep, and all by the "free speech" crowd.
belorn
The only crowd that is consistently in favor of free speech and privacy is the opposition. As soon there is a new crowd in power people change tune and then it is about freedom of speech but not freedom from consequences of speech. Over time people in power may use different criteria when speech should be punished, and by whom, but the differences are only in the fine details. No one in power has ever supported free speech (in modern time) if that free speech may harm their position of power or their voters interests.
decremental (dead)
buckle8017
Can you be specific which principles this violates?

Historically visas could and were denied for completely arbitrary reasons.

JumpCrisscross
> Can you be specific which principles this violates?

The right to free speech. Even in its restrictive First Amendment form.

lesuorac
I'm not sure 1FA applies to non-US individuals on non-US soil.

Once they're in the country, sure.

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Not that I think it's been demonstrated that this policy will improve US security or etc. Wonder if the APA applies here.

lucyjojo
there is a giant split between people.

some people only consider their in-groups as worthy of having rights.

others consider all human beings as worthy of having rights.

you see that schism in play everyday almost everywhere. i fear it is not a resolvable tension (without some kind of mass severe brainwashing). it is a core beliefs kind of thing.

energywut
I'd go further. Discrimination against some people is axiomatically part of having a nation and a border. There are no nations, to my knowledge, that permit every person residing within their borders to vote and permit any person who wishes to reside in their borders entry.

The assumption of discrimination is therefore baked in to every national project -- there are people who wish to participate in the nation but are barred from doing so. It's uncomfortable for many people to consider this, because it runs counter to the idea that their nations are welcoming places, but it's important to remember this discrimination occurs (even if you think it's a good idea.)

FireBeyond
Yeah, it's becoming more and more pervasive that you have to have "earned" those "inalienable" rights, by virtue of being a citizen. If those rights are great, what's one reason why they shouldn't be extended to all.
jkaplowitz
The First Amendment indeed doesn’t apply to non-US individuals abroad, as much as I wish it were otherwise (and many other countries do take a more inclusive approach on such matters).

But the First Amendment does apply to the many US citizens and permanent residents who are being indirectly surveilled, profiled, and chilled in their speech as a result of the extra scrutiny of the foreign visa applicants with whom they interact and connect on social media.

JumpCrisscross
> not sure 1FA applies to non-US individuals on non-US soil

Textually, it does. (The President acts without force of law when he restricts “freedom of expression.”)

Intent-wise, for those seeking entry to America, it does—our republic was formed, in part, to restrict the executive from excluding religious minorities he doesn’t liked

Legally, however, you are right.

dlivingston
> Legally, however, you are right.

Is this true? My understanding is that the 1A has been understood by SCOTUS as a restriction on government power to influence speech, _not_ as a right granted to individuals.

intended
This is moving the goal posts.

You can point out that the constitution is for Americans only etc. etc.

The thing is, that the right to free speech, as defended by court cases and by precedence, is about the market place of ideas being functional, and allowing society to figure out what it considers “true”.

This is the spirit of the clause, and the purpose behind the freedoms Americans enjoy and used to uphold.

The reading that it applies “only to American citizens, and visitors on US soil”, is an after the fact reinterpretation to win arguments online.

Free speech in America has always been about the government not being able to decide what can and can’t be said, especially when it comes down to deciding which nations can and can’t be spoken about.

Your argument, can only be built on the ruins of the American free speech experiment. Because it accepts the death of the spirit of the idea, the a marketplace of ideas as a way to address the unknowns of reality, with a centralized, and enforced way of safe topics.

For what its worth, you only reach this level of banana republic, after your information and idea markets are compromised or overwhelmed.

I’m simply pointing out that your argument on procedural merits, takes the spirit of the law to the back of the shed, and shoots it.

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