Preferences

> Why aren't we collectively putting our time/effort etc.. into making Firefox the singular and best FOSS browser ever?

Because the leadership is hellbent on copying Chrome but worse and investing in utterly pointless endeavors instead of making a good browser. It's a shame. Giving money to the Mozilla Foundation is the same as throwing it to a black hole.

I hope a new truly FOSS browser shows up and catches on that does not use Blink and isn't owned by a group of human-shaped leeches.


>Because the leadership is hellbent on copying Chrome but worse and investing in utterly pointless endeavors instead of making a good browser.

Is this a hypothesis that we can specify and test? Is this how we would approach this problem?

It sounds more like a cynical write-off, not a actual strategy

>I hope a new truly FOSS browser shows up and catches on that does not use Blink and isn't owned by a group of human-shaped leeches

Cool, but that strategy clearly isn't working.

I'm suggesting, instead of writing off Firefox, we (you specifically, and me and whomever else wants to) start engaging with Mozilla to help figure this stuff out

Nothing is perfect, but at least it's got some of the hardest parts right: Organizational momentum and distribution. Technical stuff is easy to change compared to that.

The challenge now is finding competent people who can actually put the effort in, with no compensation, to make it work and that might take convincing the Mozilla folks to do something differently.

Having done this kind of thing a few times, that sounds way easier than trying to totally start over from scratch though.

> Is this a hypothesis that we can specify and test? Is this how we would approach this problem? It sounds more like a cynical write-off, not a actual strategy

There is nothing to test, it's why I stopped using Firefox. Check the Mozilla foundation page for all the crap they fund instead of the browser. Look how much the UI looks like Chrome, even little things like clicking the searchbar expanding it outside its bounds.

> I'm suggesting, instead of writing off Firefox, we (you specifically, and me and whomever else wants to) start engaging with Mozilla to help figure this stuff out

They don't listen to feedback. When Apple (the company known for telling people they were holding their phones wrong) introduced the safari tab-redesign that merged tabs with the searchbar, it was nearly universally disliked and they backtracked on the change. Apple of all companies backtracked on a bad design. Mozilla? They just keep on going.

When Nintendo was struggling due to the failure of the Wii U, Satoru Iwata took on a massive pay cut to avoid firing people. Mozilla? Fired the Servo team and raised executive compensation.

> In 2020 Mozilla announced it would cut 25% of its worldwide staff of nearly 1,000 to reduce costs. Firefox has fallen from 30% market share to 4% in 10 years. Despite this, executive pay increased 400%, with Mitchell Baker, Mozilla’s top executive, receiving $2.4m in 2018.

Firing the Servo team was probably the dumbest thing they could have done.
> Check the Mozilla foundation page for all the crap they fund instead of the browser.

Notwithstanding that, they still put out firefox. And Firefox is a far superior browser to any of the alternatives if you care about user-centric control and privacy. So to anyone who cares even a little about being able about these things, supporting Firefox is the way to go.

If a mythical even-better browser shows up, great. But here and now, it's Firefox, or completely surrender the web to commercial interests.

> Notwithstanding that, they still put out firefox

Firefox was created by pre-Baker Mozilla which was an organisation focused mostly on - to coopt the terminology used by those who coopted Mozilla later - "software justice". When Eich was ousted (for voicing an opinion he shared with people like Barack Obama [1]) and Baker took his place she set a course towards different goals: Mozilla was going to focus more on social justice because it was not enough to only build software. She clearly did not realise - or did not care - that it was through creating viable open alternatives to proprietary browsers and related software that Mozilla was in fact doing the best it could towards achieving the aim of a more just world.

Baker needs to be ousted, she can go lead some NGO somewhere if she wants to fly social justice flags. Let Mozilla be led by those who understand that software freedom is an integral part of freedom of information access and an open internet which are essential to counteract the tendency towards authoritarianism which has plagued society since the dawn of time.

[1] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/barackobama/33750...

To those who feel the need to vote down instead of coming with counter-arguments I want to ask what you think is wrong in my reasoning. As far as I can see Baker has been a net-negative for Mozilla both due the politicisation of the organisation as well as her financial mis-management. Tell me where I'm wrong instead of trying to get my message greyed-out. I was there (at the IETF conference) when the Netscape source was released, was among the first to build the code, have done my part with testing and patching and still use Firefox. I see Baker's mismanagement and misdirection of Mozilla as a tragic mistake. What are your arguments?
> Firefox was created by pre-Baker Mozilla which was an organisation focused mostly on..

Yes, I'm familiar with the history (fun: I even have an original signed CD of the initial Netscape open source release, handed out at the release party in San Francisco which I attended).

Mozilla of today could perhaps be more focused on the browser.

Nevertheless, they continue to support it, maintain it and release it. If you want a browser today in 2023 that puts out user control and privacy first, this is it, Firefox.

> Nevertheless, they continue to support it, maintain it and release it.

Baker's organisation continues to release the browser which pulls in several hundreds of millions from Google. This money is for the largest part not used to improve the browser or the software ecosystem surrounding it - Firefox sync is withering on the vine, Thunderbird has been spun off, Seamonkey has been spun off a long time ago, Servo has been terminated (the project is continued by volunteers), the Rust team has been let go, etc. The money is used for political activism and to fund Baker (who again raised her own remuneration, from $2.5 million to $3 million) [1] and her organisation.

That Firefox still is being released is more despite of Baker's managerial decisions than thanks to them. Mozilla is kept alive by Google because the presence of Firefox on the market is an insurance against claims of a monopoly. That insurance is getting less effective now that Firefox has dropped to a low single digit market share so it remains to be seen whether Google will continue to shore up Mozilla for much longer.

> If you want a browser today in 2023 that puts out user control and privacy first, this is it, Firefox.

Yes, that is still true because of the work done by Mozilla developers and volunteers. Now imagine how much further the browser and related projects could have been had Mozilla been led by someone who would use the proceeds of the Google deal to further software and ecosystem development instead of what largely amounts to political virtue signalling, "color of change" and other PACs and similar activities.

Baker is not the right person to lead this organisation, she is a political activist [2] better suited for an NGO or PAC.

[1] https://techrights.org/o/2022/02/17/mozilla-salaries/

[2] https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/we-need-more-than-deplat...

Yep, they’d need to fire Baker to right the ship at this point, among other things
Under section 3.5 of the Mozilla foundation Bylaws [1], Baker could be removed by the board, which consists of Mitchell Baker, Brian Behlendorf, Helen Turvey, Nicole Wong, Amy Keating, and Mark Surman [2]. Note that the directors are elected by the directors in the first place so sadly, it is unlikely to happen.

[1]: https://static.mozilla.com/foundation/documents/mf-bylaws.pd...

[2]: https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/who-we-are/leadership/

It doesn't have any builds for any open OS.
Once it supports other platforms it can definitely be a good alternative!
I just donated $5.65 so, that's something
Just curious, would you need something completely new to show up, or would a well-funded, openly-governed fork of Firefox work?
Firefox (the underlying tech) is fine, the problem is the management. Fork away.
Isn't that because Firefox itself basically makes no money? I know about Google's deal with them but it seems like Mozilla is trying to diversify away from them.
I'd say it's because it is the nature of bureaucracy to expand. An open source browser doesn't need to make money, but a foundation tends not to maintain an unerring focus on a single specific goal.
Firefox is the only thing that makes money. The problem is that the money made by Firefox was not invested back into Firefox. As a result market share fell. Less market share leads to less money from search deal.
The only thing Firefox users hate more than Mozilla taking money from Google is Mozilla making money from other sources. Why can't the Mozilla team just be ascetic hairshirts who make exactly the browser they want and bring XUL back while they're at it. /s
The Mozilla Foundation is a non-profit that owns the for-profit Mozilla Corporation.

Step 1 is get rid of the for-profit corporation that pays its CEO 2.4 million dollars a year to lose market share. That's 24 well-paid developers, or double that from lower-income countries.

The foundation had a revenue of $441 million in 2020. We know that in 2014 ~90% of their revenue come from its search-engine deal with Google. That means that without Google they'd have ~44 million to work with these days (or more).

That's a lot of devs, before even considering non-search-engine sources of revenue. Personally I don't mind ideas like the VPN. I do mind the stupid grants the foundation does unrelated to a web-browser or acquisitions like pocket.

Couldn't they take the Google money, invest it, and pay developers purely from the interest? Like a university endowment?

How many years of Google money would it take to support ~500 staff purely for making Firefox in perpetuity? That's maybe ~$50 million/year?

This[1] says endowments target ~7.5% annualized returns. So a very conservative 5% return could pay for ~500 staff with ~$1 billion in Google bucks.

[1] https://www.nacubo.org/Press-Releases/2023/Higher-Education-...

> That's 24 well-paid developers, or double that from lower-income countries.

That's a stretch even if we don't count the additional overhead.

For a non-profit that (already) runs a mass of volunteers? Surely you jest. The CEO of the blender foundation makes around 100k. They develop one of the greatest open source success stories on 2 million a year. That's less (for the whole project) than Baker makes (2.4 million). There's no excuse for the shitshow that is Mozilla, none.
Firefox have no way to support Tab Groups like any Chrome does by default. So is a no-go for me.

Any suggestion that Firefox do support Tab Groups will be met with ridicule. It just doesn't.

This item has no comments currently.

Keyboard Shortcuts

Story Lists

j
Next story
k
Previous story
Shift+j
Last story
Shift+k
First story
o Enter
Go to story URL
c
Go to comments
u
Go to author

Navigation

Shift+t
Go to top stories
Shift+n
Go to new stories
Shift+b
Go to best stories
Shift+a
Go to Ask HN
Shift+s
Go to Show HN

Miscellaneous

?
Show this modal