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Animal agriculture has too many shortcomings.

- Greenhouse gas emissions

- Deforestation

- Land degradation

- Water pollution

- Water overconsumption

- Loss of biodiversity

- Antibiotic resistance

- Ocean dead zones

- Inefficient land and resource use

- Ethical concerns regarding animal welfare

- Contribution to zoonotic diseases

- Air pollution

- Eutrophication

- Soil erosion

- High energy consumption

- Chemical runoff from pesticides and fertilizers

- Destruction of habitats and ecosystems

- Overfishing and bycatch

- Inequality in global food distribution

- Public health risks from foodborne illnesses

- Nutrient pollution

- Strain on waste management systems

etc.


JasserInicide
Many of these beyond a surface-level inspection break down upon a closer inspection

Inefficient land and resource use

Land degradation

Loss of biodiversity

Soil erosion

In the US, most of the land used for grazing is already insufficient for farming most crops. You take cows and such off of them, you're left with near-useless land.

Chemical runoff from pesticides and fertilizers

Not exclusive to livestock and their feed, feels weird to attribute it to just them.

Widely-available meat in the Western world is a Pandora's Box; it's just not going away. It's better to find ways to make it more efficient than to go all pissed-off-vegan and want to ban meat everywhere in favor of ultra-processed replacement monstrosities. You'll win more people to your side too.

Furthermore, attacking the end-consumer does absolutely nothing. It's like banning plastic bags/straws, It just makes liberal lawmakers feel good about themselves. You want to really change our diets? Go after the billions in subsidies handed out to farmers for growing corn/soybeans/dairy and such in order to stay competitive against cheaper products overseas. Good luck.

> Go after the billions in subsidies handed out to farmers for growing corn/soybeans/dairy and such in order to stay competitive against cheaper products overseas. Good luck.

We deliberately overproduce food so that when, say, corrupt regimes attack one of the world's largest wheat growers, we don't end up starving. It's a necessary adaptation for a country that has to worry about food security in the event of wars, even if it has 2nd order effects that are not so good.

stametseater
Exactly, when it comes to essential matters like food, stability is much more important than efficiency. I don't want the food supply chain optimized for efficiency, nobody should. Optimize it for reliable output.
darkerside
We've seen what optimizing for efficiency can do to the rest of our supply chain in recent years
finikytou (dead)
throwaway173738
I think the disconnect here is that you presuppose that all land must be put to some productive use.
skrbjc
Much of that "marginal land" originally had animals grazing on it anyway. We have barely more cows in this country now than buffalo at their peak. "Re-wilding" land would just mean we have animals grazing at that we don't eat.
myshpa OP
Before the arrival of European settlers in North America, it is estimated that there were approximately 30 to 60 million bison (also known as buffalo) roaming the continent.

We are currently consuming upto three times as many cows each year as there were wild buffalos.

https://www.sciencealert.com/the-current-mass-extinction-is-...

- Cows (cattle): In 2021, the United States had approximately 94.4 million head of cattle, including those raised for beef and dairy production.

- Beef: In 2021, the United States imported approximately 3.1 billion pounds of beef and veal, that's apx. 6 mil. cows.

- Pigs (hogs): In 2020, the United States produced around 129 million hogs.

- Pork: In 2021, the United States imported approximately 1.0 billion pounds of pork.

- Chickens (broilers): In 2020, the United States produced about 9.1 billion broiler chickens for meat.

- Poultry: In 2021, the United States imported around 913 million pounds of poultry meat, including broiler meat and turkey meat.

- Turkeys: In 2020, the United States produced approximately 229 million turkeys.

Fish, shellfish, ducks, sheep, goats, or dairy products not included.

Source: USDA National Agricultural Statistics Service

EngManagerIsMe
Or that farming is the only productive use.
mdp2021
Those shortcomings are more relevant to intensive, wrong, unregulated and mindless practice. There is a form of farming which keeps those shortcomings contained - with different costs (but also with different quality).
myshpa OP
> Those shortcomings are more relevant to intensive, wrong, unregulated and mindless practice

On average 90 percent of meat and eggs raised in the U.S. come from CAFOs

https://mostpolicyinitiative.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/...

rhn_mk1
"Concentrated Animal Feeding Operations"
sharkjacobs
> Yes, but animal agriculture can be less harmful if you do less of it
mdp2021
I beg your pardon? It is not just a matter of "raising less animals", it is also (and mainly) a matter of raising them sensibly.
giraffe_lady
It is mostly a matter of raising less animals. No other factor or approach or combination of them can address these things alone, reduction is a necessary step.

Defining any of this as "sensible" is an error imo. In a sense it's certainly sensible to have the goal of providing accessibly-priced meat to every member of a large country. Each step along the way is sensible, I'm sure.

But then we end up here and there is nothing sensible about it. The sheer scale required to provide all that flesh is nearly profane in its own right. There is simply and frankly no way to do it responsibly at the scale we've chosen to do it.

It seems meat will either remain built on human, animal and ecological exploitation at an incomprehensible scale, or it will revert to a rare and expensive luxury mostly available only to an economic elite. I haven't seen a compelling vision of any alternative.

davidjones332 (dead)
OJFord
That's only a paraphrasing to the extent that it means higher cost, which means lower demand, which means lower supply. It's not the point that was made, and the 'harm saving' would be greater than proportional to the consequent reduction in supply (ceteris paribus).
Right, but the amount of meat we could get from non-intensive agriculture is likely an order of magnitude lower, meaning an order of magnitude rise in price.
randomdata
Tell us more about the form of farming that contains the high energy consumption shortcoming listed above. As a crop farmer, even a comparatively small reduction in energy availability from a cloudy year can cause a noticeable impact on yields. I wonder what we would eat if we saw a dramatic decline in available energy.
CuriouslyC
He's probably referring to one of a variety of permaculture setups that integrates animals and a food forest into their operation. Carbon zero and super cheap to maintain, but challenging to setup and harder to sell some of the products.
randomdata
Still incredibly energy intensive. I honestly cannot think of any food that isn't, at least indirectly if not directly, so I want to know more about these farming practices that can contain the energy need.
CuriouslyC
There is a spectrum of permaculture that ranges from low yield totally self managing systems where you basically hunt and forage, to high yield partially automated systems that almost look like slick modern farms. Those low yield systems can still be very productive, but you have to go get it, so it's obviously more of a subsistence farmer or agritourism thing.
stametseater
> permaculture setups that integrates animals and a food forest into their operation.

This is a premise from a bygone era. Replace modern farming with integrated permaculture and billions will starve. Such farming techniques only persist in developed countries today as niche activities to amuse yuppies who want to buy some connection to nature at the grocery store.

CuriouslyC
Great idea. We'll just keep trashing our planet until it can't support our outsized population, then we'll destroy each other trying not to starve.
MrMan (dead)
manoDev
Raising SOME animals in SOME places is an efficient way to produce protein, including dairy – like zebu cattle and goat, hardy animals that graze on land that will grow nothing. There are human populations outside the western bubble surviving with minimal resources for a long time thanks to that.

Raising large quantities of animals in the rhythm necessary to feed meat daily to a large population is irrational and creates these shortcomings.

IMO animal agriculture is just another one of those topics that, if you really deep-dive, turns into a discussion of overpopulation and capitalism.

timeon
"everyone should stop eating meat" is red herring. People often point out outside of "western bubble" so they can get rid of responsibility inside that "bubble". Really poor people do not eat meat in scale that is now so common in rich countries.
PeterisP
True, but in the last few decades so many people world wide have stopped being so poor that they do not eat meat in large scale. In China, meat consumption per person has increased more than sixfold since 1980, getting close to EU levels, and that is a natural outcome of Chinese people becoming less poor; the same is likely to happen elsewhere around the world unless some factor keeps the developing world so poor that they can't afford to do so.
triyambakam
> animals that graze on land that will grow nothing

You must not literally mean nothing, but I still don't understand where the nutrients are supposed to come from if the land is so poor that food crops won't grow, yet there is supposed to be enough nutritious grass for grazing?

hcarvalhoalves
Of course I mean figuratively. Humans don’t have a rumen, so our capability of extracting energy from vegetables is much more limited, basically we need starch (grains or tubers). These animals can feed on grass where these nitrogen-intensive crops won’t grow without fertilizers.
giraffe_lady
It's not an overpopulation problem.

When you hit "the world can't support everyone living the way we live" the problem is with the way we live, not with everyone living.

We can easily provide healthy nutritious food to everyone and many many more. Just not in the form that we are currently choosing for ourselves.

hcarvalhoalves
Define “easily”.

Seriously, if you ever dealt with land in your life, you would know agriculture is anything but “easy”. It only exists in today’s shape and form thanks to fossil fuels, massive government incentives and cost externalities.

giraffe_lady
OK fine it's hard we still have to do it though you can't just throw up your hands and say "eugenics time!"

It still seems pretty clear to me that the problem is resource overconsumption, not simple overpopulation. Let's address that first bit first then see where we are.

hcarvalhoalves
The problem is you can’t discuss consumption without addressing the population. The current economic model simply pushes the rest of world to consume at the unsustainable levels of a North American or European citizen. One of those will have to give.
CameronNemo
Reducing population size indiscriminately is not eugenics.
giraffe_lady
Well when you put it that way it certainly sounds like a reasonable & restrained plan.
concordDance
Almost all of these apply to plant farming too?
PretzelPirate
Of course, most plants we grow are fed to animals. Directly eating plants would reduce the overall impact since we'd grow less.
timeon
Yes. And with animal agriculture - especially at scale that is needed for contemporary demand - you need huge amount of plant farming.
myshpa OP
If the world adopted a plant-based diet we would reduce global agricultural land use from 4 to 1 billion hectares

https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets

DrThunder (dead)
korroziya (dead)
macinjosh (dead)
DrThunder
This isn't relegated to animal agriculture.....
amanaplanacanal
Like almost all environmental problems, nobody wants to talk about the real root of the problem: people have been having too damn many babies.
kmeisthax
No, it isn't. In fact, the entire developed world, plus Russia and China, is facing significant demographic cliffs in the near future because people stopped having too many damned babies decades ago. Human population will peak at 10B and start declining from there. In fact, several countries are trying to restart excess-replacement fertility specifically because the decline in working-age population is already too steep and the alternative is to starve the elderly to death[0].

The real root of the problem is that there is no root of the problem. There are hundreds of causes that all feed back into one another. If you try to boil this down into a root-cause narrative, what you will inevitably end up with is a cartoon caricature that, at best, pushes an anti-human narrative; and worse / more likely, blames some proxy for the poor, racial minorities, or foreigners. I know this because the whole 'population bomb' thing wound up being used by fascists to try and paint their shenanigans as environmentally friendly.

[0] In Russia, this is literally the only thing that will get Putin chucked out a window. A very large chunk of the country moved to mining towns in the 70s and 80s to take advantage of the Soviet Union equivalent of FIRE[1]. Those pensions are a crushing burden upon the government and any attempt to reduce them causes massive protests and riots.

[1] Financial Independence, Retire Early

biorach
> A very large chunk of the country moved to mining towns in the 70s and 80s to take advantage of the Soviet Union equivalent of FIRE[1]. Those pensions are a crushing burden upon the government

Sources? In particular, what proportion of the population?

When were the attempts to reduce the pensions?

kmeisthax
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-1n-05Xu6Y

This video has it's own sources list linked in the description: https://pastebin.com/AbaJ8EW1

To summarize: in Soviet Russia you got early retirement if you worked in mining, or moved to certain smaller towns. A lot of people in Russia maximized their early retirement by doing this. Then the Soviet Union collapsed and Russia went through Hard Times. Their fertility rate fell off a cliff and never recovered. While other countries also had falling fertility rates, they also have lots of immigration to offset that, but nobody wants to move to Russia. So imagine America, but with no millenials, no immigrants, twice as many boomers, and they all only care about keeping Medicare functional for exclusively themselves.

One of Putin's first acts was to attempt pension reform, because it's the $3600 spent on candles[0] in the Russian budget. This led to massive protests, so he backed down. He tried again around the time COVID started, and again, massive protests. It's the one thing that reliably causes Putin's popularity numbers to fall. Not even an unpopular invasion will do that. Because, for a large proportion of older Russians, the government exists solely as the medium by which treasure is pilfered from the rest of the world and into their pocket.

I don't remember the exact proportion of Russian pensioners to the rest of the population, I just remember that it's unusually dire.

[0] https://twitter.com/dril/status/384408932061417472

remexre
I thought the root cause isn't the total number of people, it's the fact that developed-nation lifestyles are a lot more environmentally impactful than developing ones; (6B * current developed-nation avg carbon footprint) > (8B * current global avg carbon footprint)
concordDance
They're both causes. E.g. if there were only 500 million people in the world there'd be no issue. Similarly, if everyone lived a somali lifestyle it wouldn't be that bad environmentally.
comte7092
Population growth is peaking and will begin to decline within the lifetimes of people being born today.

Your point is a red herring.

vixen99
Actually lots of people are now talking about the problem of too few babies especially in Europe. Many countries are looking to their populations halving by 2100. A recent report says there are 79 countries with fertility rates (mean=1.59) below the replacement level rate (mean=2.08).

[ The means are my calculations on dataset in https://www.pop.org/simple/countries-with-below-replacement-... ]

There are some negative consequences or at least difficult questions to wrestle with. Where is the tax coming from in a massively aged world? Who pays for healthcare for the elderly and who looks after them? Will retirement remain an option in those countries and will those folk get a pension? Others can comment on the positive aspects of declining fertility.

goodpoint
By large part most of the problem is due to overconsumption from a minority of the world population.

But I don't blame most individuals: people buy what's available in shops and have little choice to do otherwise. The problem is in the economical system.

How many is just right?
DrThunder
Absolutely not. This a massive lie propped up by nihilistic ant-humanist rhetoric.

The population is going down. People aren't having enough babies for replacement. You're going to have a rude awakening when you get old and there's not enough people to take care of you, pay into the retirement system etc.

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