Preferences

Yea, conspiracy theories are problematic. You can put "may" in any statement and it's technically true, doesn't mean facebook/twitter can't mark it as misleading.

Conspiracy theories sometimes turn out to just be conspiracies. That's why we need to be able to talk about them.

I'm not qualified to say if the lab leak has any credence, but it wouldn't be the first time the powers at be have been wrong. Just look at the classic "WMDs in the Middle East" rhetoric that lead us to war.

I don't think the WMD thing was anyone being wrong; rather it was a deliberate lie to justify a war that was wanted for other reasons.

But agreed in general; I think there's a lot of political opposition on the left to the lab-leak theory, in no small part because Trump pushed so hard to blame the Chinese for the virus while in office. Even if unlikely, a lab leak is far from impossible as a cause, and we should talk about it and explore it until evidence conclusively rules it out.

Thanks to Ministry of truth at Twitter, I feel so much protected from conspiracy theories online.
>Yea, conspiracy theories are problematic.

Are they? It's easy to walk down the slippery road that leads to authoritarian behaviors.

Obviously problematic is a spectrum. Banning them is problematic too. But yes, conspiracy theories are problematic. They lead to poorly informed decisions such as anti-vac and asian discrimination and anti-semitism.
Some conspiracy theories turn out to be true. Suppressing research into these would also lead to poorly informed decisions. For example, government mass surveillance on the scale revealed by Snowden was considered a conspiracy theory before the proof emerged.

So I would disagree that "conspiracy theories are problematic." Some are problematic, but there are also some that turn out to be extremely important. No progress is made without questioning authority and the status quo.

Needing to have evidence to not have your theory marked as misleading doesn't disincentivize research into conspiracies. It does the opposite. There would be more research into these theories so that their purveyors could say them without being labeled misleading. Anyone would still be able to do their own research under this model too, they would hopefully just know not to blindly believe what they read.

Investigating wrongdoing and backing up findings with evidence is extremely important. Spouting unfounded lies is not.

The bigger problem is when platforms block the content. In this case very few people will hear about the conspiracy theory. So then few will know that this is something worth investigating. This dramatically hinders research into the (potentially true) conspiracy theory.

I have less of a problem with marking things as unfounded if they are actually unfounded. I wouldn't use the term misleading because not all unfounded claims are false. There's still a lot of gray area here. Maybe the person in charge of making those judgements is not a subject matter expert. Or maybe the person making the claim has some additional information that cannot be revealed. (Perhaps they are inside the organization and cannot leak too much or they will be caught.)

I would set the bar for marking things as misleading as requiring evidence to the contrary. I think it is fine to mark things as lacking evidence, as long as that can be established fairly and reliably. I have my doubts that this can be done reliably, but as long as there is no blocking occurring, I think the harm of a mistake is minimized. Anyone claiming to be an impartial subject matter expert capable of making these judgements should provide evidence of that claim.

Consipracy theories: 'the election was rigged', lets storm yhe Capitol are just as capable of leading to authoritarian behaviours
"the election was rigged" is essentially unfalsifiable. If you stop people from saying it when it isn't true, you'll also inevitably silence people from saying it if it ever becomes true in the future.

To me, the latter is too big a price to pay for the former.

But do you agree we should stop it when their instrument of voicing said opinion goes from online forum to pitchforks and firearms?

If so, where do you propose the line exists?

If not, I would suggest you're advocating that the "loudest" voice (where volume is measured by firepower) always gets their way.

>If so, where do you propose the line exists?

The line is drawn where an actual crime is committed.

I'm not really a fan of pre-crime control measures, but that's a personal opinion.

On the 14th of June 2017, a gunman radicalized by Facebook shot a member of Congress, Steve Scalise, after asking about his political affiliation. This actual shooting which actually left Scalise in hospital fighting for his life with serious internal injuries which required multiple life-saving operations did not lead to any of the media hand-wringing about political violence that the storming of the Capitol - where the members of Congress who "feared for their lives" were barracaded securely away from the supposed potential threat, and the only person who got shot was one of the people storming the building - did. Instead, the Democrats and publications like the New York Times pushed a completely false narrative that actually, Scalise and his party were the ones that inspired the shooting of a member of Congress, falsely blaming the shooting of Gabby Giffords on them when in reality that had nothing to do with national partisan politics at all.

This isn't even a "both sides" thing, because I'm pretty sure there isn't any actual equivalent of the attack on Scalise but on the other side. It stands almost entirely alone in recent US political history, a uniquely awful example of America's political polarisation turning into a justification for violence and attempted assassination that came incredibly close to succeeding. (Also, I would be shocked if one of the things that radicalized the attacker wasn't false claims of presidential election rigging, just because they were so utterly pervasive on social media amongst people with his political affiliation back then.)

All the mainstream American media narratives about the dangers of political violence have nothing to do with actual political violence. It's a weapon they use against the political side they oppose and stop caring about or even become apologists for when the side they support is carrying out the violence.

> But do you agree we should stop it when their instrument of voicing said opinion goes from online forum to pitchforks and firearms?

Sure, believing any conspiracy theory is not a justification for breaking the law.

> If so, where do you propose the line exists?

The line is already clearly defined by the law. Ranting on Facebook about conspiracies (true or not) is legal. Nonviolent protests are legal. Storming the Capitol obviously isn't.

> you'll also inevitably silence people from saying it if it ever becomes true in the future.

Clearly not - we know that it is possible for elections to be fraudulent and people can talk about it. We don't yet live in a post-truth society. Evidence counts.

I disagree it's clear that any hypothetical censorship of "conspiracy theories that are false" wouldn't later be used on "conspiracy theories that are true".

There is obviously no clear delineation between these two categories and the censors (ie government or big tech) would be incentivized to bill some instances of the latter category as the former.

I just want extraordinary claims without evidence to be marked as such. If you want to claim the election is rigged you should need some evidence. At that point everyone can make an informed decision about if they believe the claim is true.
Then we would just have the same fight over what is considered evidence.

Not that I believe the election was stolen, but I think the lab leak is the most credible, to a great degree because it was censored so badly earlier.

That's up to the reader. When they see a claim marked "unfounded" it's on them to figure out whether they believe it is true or not.
Is it misleading to say that the CIA did mind control experiments on US citizens and that it lead to domestic terrorism?

Is it misleading to say that a group of doctors conspired to ensure that black Americans died of a disease they could have cured, just so that they could study their effects?

Because those are conspiracy theories, and they are both true.

Things which have actual evidence get to move from "conspiracy theory" to "fact".
The point is they dismissed it out of hand and banned anyone who said otherwise. Btw, liberal news outlets are finally admitting now that the lab leak hypothesis is probably right.
People were banned for falsely asserting it was confirmed to be a lab leak. That's still a false assertion.

I'm not aware of any major news outlet - liberal or otherwise - "finally admitting now that the lab leak hypothesis is probably right" at this point. The WSJ story the other day doesn't come close to that assertion yet.

Facebook banned a New York Post story that was factual and not inflammatory: https://thehill.com/homenews/media/548612-facebook-prevents-...

So people or stories get banned even if they are true for some other reasons. You don't know what those reasons are, and they may change going forward.

Facebook banned that story - as clearly stated in the article - for doxxing someone's private address. They've done this for years, as has Twitter (example from 2017: https://money.cnn.com/2017/11/03/technology/business/twitter...).

https://www.facebook.com/communitystandards/privacy_violatio...

> We remove content that shares, offers or solicits personally identifiable information or other private information that could lead to physical or financial harm, including financial, residential and medical information, as well as private information obtained from illegal sources.

That’s simply false. They don’t block stories that doxx people’s private addresses, their policies are enforced unequally and only when it suites their own political agenda, whatever that may be.

Pretending they’re being fair, when you know they’re not is gaslighting.

You may think it’s ok for them to apply their policies unequally, and dishonestly; that’s another discussion, but please don’t act like what they’re doing is fair or honest.

The biggest example of them not blocking doxxing was the implicit help in spreading the Parlar hacked data. I know of fb devs who participated in spreading it.

It can also be very easily argued that the leader of the BLM movement is a public figure and sharing her home address is not doxxing. And I’m sure that argument has been used to allow sharing private info of similar public figures who Facebook’s progressive devs didn’t care for.

Do you have a link to the New York Post story? I didn't see a link in the article you shared, and Facebook's claim was that the NYP story included a person's home address(es).
Funny that no one was banned for saying, as many did, that it was impossible for it to have come from a Chinese lab. Those asymmetries in enforcement always seem to lean in the same direction.
It's a shame you're being downvoted, because you're exactly correct. I heard a lot of rhetoric around it being impossible that it was a lab leak. I thought it pretty unlikely, but claiming that it was impossible is just as misinformative as claiming it 100% was a lab leak.
Can you give an example?
> People were banned for falsely asserting it was confirmed to be a lab leak

This is such a false spin on what was actually happening. It was only a year ago. It isn't hard to remember. People were banned/downvoted to oblivion for merely suggesting the lab leak was a credible theory, not for claiming it was definitely the 100% truth. Stop gaslighting.

I don't find it hard to remember, and conflating downvotes and bans as if they're the same thing is disingenuous.

This item has no comments currently.

Keyboard Shortcuts

Story Lists

j
Next story
k
Previous story
Shift+j
Last story
Shift+k
First story
o Enter
Go to story URL
c
Go to comments
u
Go to author

Navigation

Shift+t
Go to top stories
Shift+n
Go to new stories
Shift+b
Go to best stories
Shift+a
Go to Ask HN
Shift+s
Go to Show HN

Miscellaneous

?
Show this modal