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elcapitan parent
Yes, but the accessibility of TLA+, if you come from traditional programming languages, is quite harsh. I have 2 books about it and keep coming back to it every once in a while, but every single time there is a lot of investment into the exact syntax of certain things. Better tooling like AI autocomplete is a huge step there. I can still think about the spec, but not get stuck every single time on minor details.
skydhash
The devil is in the details. That's the whole point of formalism. There should be no ambiguity meaning what's written is what you want to be written. If you generate and can't prove what's generated is what you intended, the whole point of even writing it is moot.
lo_zamoyski
Yes, and no. Relevant details. If the formalism bogs you down in tangential or irrelevant stuff, it means it's a poor fit.

But I don't think that's the case here. Most programmers don't have much experience with specs, and much less experience with formalized specs, especially if they come from an imperative background. I think those from declarative backgrounds will be much more at home with TLA+. The imperative style causes people to obsess over the "how", while the declarative style focuses more on the "what", and specs are more of a matter of "what" than "how".

skydhash
It can be both. Here is one example that provides the how instead of the what:

https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5321.html#section-3.1

A lot of declarative languages do a lot of hard work designing an imperative kernel that will support the declarative construct. It just takes skill to separate the two together, just like it takes skill to split code between states, interfaces and implementations.

elcapitan OP
I understand the semantics, I forget the syntax. So better tooling is great because it allows even retards like me to use TLA+ after forgetting the syntax details after 2 weeks.
lo_zamoyski
> if you come from traditional programming languages, is quite harsh

This may be the result of failing to adequately distinguish between the spec and the implementation. PlusCal, as I understand it, is an attempt to bridge this gap for programmers who don't yet have a good grasp of this distinction. So where in TLA+ you would model the observable behavior of a system in terms of transitions in a state machine, PlusCal gives users a language that looks more like implementation. (Frankly, I find the PlusCal approach more distracting and opaque, but I'm also a more abstract thinker than most.)

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