Preferences

> Taking a photograph of a car with its license plate is legal. As is selling a photo you've taken, whether it has a license plate or not.

> Therefore taking millions of photos in public of cars, and turning their license plate numbers into a database is legal, as is selling that information. It's all data gained in public.

One absolutely does not follow the other; there are all sorts of things that are legal only if done for certain purposes, only below a certain scale, etc. The idea that we must permit both or neither is a false dichotomy.


E.g. I have the personal liberty to host card game for money at my house. But if I require a house take, now I'm running a gambling business.
That's not a difference in scope; it's a difference in kind.

And even the latter is fraught with hazards to liberty.

Observing and recording is a difference in kind. Recording and processing is a difference in kind. Processing and selling is a difference in kind. And quantity has a quality all its own.
> Observing and recording is a difference in kind.

Not if you believe in a right of general-purpose computing. Your brain records everything you observe. If you can use a computer for any purpose you choose, then you can use it to record what you can see and hear.

Human memory is not recording in common or legal language. And laws now reflect the difference. Copyright for example.
> Not if you believe in a right of general-purpose computing

Uh, sure. If we make up a right, there is a problem.

Currently, this right doesn't exist. We make plenty of laws without presuming it exists. Plenty of people are trying and failing to pursue voters that it should exist, and I generaly commend them. But it's weird to the point of bordring on intentional distraction to try and pot this specific issue on the basis of a demand that doesn't apply to anything else.

Right of general-purpose computing doesn't allow you to do things that would be illegal for other reasons.
> That's not a difference in scope; it's a difference in kind

At a certain point, difference in scale becomes difference in kind. This is fundamental to the universe to the point of thermodynamics.

(To the example, how do you think it would go if you regularly hosted hundres of card games in respect of which you didn't take a cut?)

But that's literally the question I'm asking. Where do you draw the line in a way that stops what we consider to be abuses, but doesn't stop what we think of as legitimate uses by journalists, academics, etc.?

E.g. city employees who need to better understand traffic patterns originating from one neighborhood, to plan better public transit. Journalists who want to expose the congestion caused by Amazon delivery trucks. And so forth.

Is it database size? Commercial use? Whether license plates are hashed before storing? Hashed before selling the data to a third party? What about law enforcement with a warrant? Etc.

> But that's literally the question I'm asking. Where do you draw the line in a way that stops what we consider to be abuses, but doesn't stop what we think of as legitimate uses by journalists, academics, etc.?

I think the wrong assumption you're making, is that there is supposed to be a simple answer, like something you can describe with a thousand words. But with messy reality this basically never the case: Where do you draw the line of what is considered a taxable business? What are the limits of free speech? What procedures should be paid by health insurance?

It is important to accept this messiness and the complexity it brings instead of giving up and declaring the problem unsolvable. If you have ever asked yourself, why the GDPR is so difficult and so multifaceted in its implications, the messiness you are pointing out is the reason.

And of course, the answer to your question is: Look at the GDPR and European legislation as a precedent to where you draw the line for each instance and situation. It's not perfect of course, but given the problem, it can't be.

Generally, you do want the general principle of something like this to be explainable in a few sentences, yes.

Even if that results in a bunch of more detailed regulations, we can then understand the principles behind those regulations, even if they decide a bunch of edge cases with precise lines that seem arbitrary.

Things like the limits of free speech can be explained in a few sentences at a high level. So yes, I'm asking for what the equivalent might be here.

The idea that "it's so impossibly complicated that the general approach can't even be summarized" is not helpful. Even when regulations are complicated, they start from a few basic principles that can be clearly enumerated.

This is not how things ever work in practice in representative democracy. The world is too complex, and the many overlapping sets of political groups in a country/provice/city have different takes on what the policy should be, and more importantly, each group have different tolerances for what they will accept.

Because everyone has different principles by which they evaluate the world, most laws don't actually care about principles. They are simply arbitrary lines in the sand drawn by the legislature in a bid to satisfy (or not dissatisfy) as many groups as possible. Sometimes, some vague sounding principles are attached to the laws, but its always impossible for someone else to start with the same principles and derive the exact same law from them.

Constitutions on the other hand seem simple and often have simple sounding principles in them. The reason is that constitutions specify what the State institutions can and cannot do. The State is a relatively simple system compared to the world, so constitutions seem simple. Laws on the other hand specify what everyone else must or must not do, and they must deal with messy reality.

This is not just unhelpful (and overly cynical), but it is untrue.

Courts follow the law, but they also make determinations all the time based on the underlying principles when the law itself is not clear.

Law school itself is largely about learning all the relevant principles at work. (Along with lots of memorization of cases demonstrating which principle won where.)

I understand you're trying to take a realist or pragmatic approach, but you seem to have gone way too far in that direction.

The principle is that you should be able to casually document what you see in public, but you should not be able to intrude on the privacy of others.
Emphasis on casual, IMO. It is perfectly reasonable to decide that past norms which evolved in the absence of large scale computing power, digital cameras, and interconnected everything do not translate to the right to extrapolate freedom of casual observation into computer-assisted stalking.
It’s where you decouple the vehicle information (make, model, plate) from the PII (registered owner information)
License plate numbers are generally considered PII in their own right. A tuple of make, model, color, and year range is getting awfully close to an equivalent on its own as well.
no they're not. PII has to be able to identify an individual.

anyone can in theory be driving a car. is it my wife, or me, or my kid taking the station wagon out this weekend?

it's also why red light cameras and speed camera send tickets to the registered owner, not necessarily who is driving. my sister in law borrows the car and I get the ticket

Generally "I wasn't driving then" is actually a defense to the automated cameras. The registered owner things is just the first pass like any other lazy investigation.

In the broader context PII is a looser concept, and can be thought of like browser fingerprinting. The legal system hasn't formalized it nearly to the same degree, but does have the concept of how enough otherwise public information sufficiently correlated can break into the realm of privacy violations. I. The browser fingerprinting world that's thought of pretty explicitly in terms of contributions of bits of entropy, but the legal system has pushed back on massive public surveillance when it steps into the realm of stalking or a firm of investigation that should require a warrant.

PII isn’t limited to SSNs. By your logic, First name can’t be PII, and last name with no accompanying info wouldn’t be PII. Different types of data have different risk profiles. When multiple records about an individual are collected the risk grows exponentially. Location is absolutely PII when combined with other risky data, like license plate.
One big easy line to draw is personal+individual versus commercial+corporation. There should be sweeping privacy laws that individuals can use to prevent information about them (including government issued identifiers) from being recorded, processed, and stored. Then for private vs private, a de minimis exception for individuals doing it noncommercially on a small number of people.

Delivery trucks are operated by corporations so don't have privacy protection (although the individuals driving them would from things like facial recognition). Traffic patterns can be studied without the use of individual identifiers. Law enforcement is moot because the juicy commercial surveillance databases won't be generated in the first place, and without them we can have an honest societal conversation whether the government should create their own surveillance databases of everyone's movements.

These aren't insurmountable problems. GDPR gets these answers mostly right. What it requires is drawing a line in the sand and iterating to close loopholes, rather than simply assuming futility when trying to regulate the corporate surveillance industry.

I see so I can follow you around and continuously 24x7 video tape and document your actions as long as it’s in public this should be fine.
This is literally what private detectives do when they tail someone. So yes, this is legal as long as it's not harassing or there's a restraining order or something. Did you think it was not?
> Did you think it was not?

Not OP, but yes, I think it is not. At least, not legal in the same expansive way that you are implying. AFAIK private detective work is very much regulated, most likely because it is otherwise known as stalking.

stalking implies harassment, threats, and real or perceived potential for danger

it is illegal because it means the stalker will attack / rape / otherwise damage or harass the victim.

however watching or tracking someone in public is plenty legal, and actual PIs have ethical and legal obligation to weed out stalkers and dubious behavior

The purpose and intention matters a lot. A stalker has very different intentions to a private detective.
A stalker could hire a private detective as a quick and easy hack if intentions did not matter.

Private detectives have an obligation to ensure that the intentions of their clients are legal if they want to continue to be private detectives.

So I know you're saying that's too much, but honestly even if the bar was set at that level it would fix mass surveillance. If it takes one hour of labor to track one person for an hour, things work out fine.
That is what the church of Scientology does with people they don't like. 24/7, people standing outside your house, recording you.

This item has no comments currently.

Keyboard Shortcuts

Story Lists

j
Next story
k
Previous story
Shift+j
Last story
Shift+k
First story
o Enter
Go to story URL
c
Go to comments
u
Go to author

Navigation

Shift+t
Go to top stories
Shift+n
Go to new stories
Shift+b
Go to best stories
Shift+a
Go to Ask HN
Shift+s
Go to Show HN

Miscellaneous

?
Show this modal