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I know this is a tangent but honestly, this is why the Google decision to de-openify Android is insane even from Google's point of view. Who would want to be an iron clad gate keeper when the world is descending into authoritarianism? You just paint a giant target on your back for the authoritarians to come after.

If Apple had supported open iCloud alternatives for backup and other services from day one, it woudn't even be a discussion now. The UK probably wouldn't have thought of the idea of mandating against E2E encryption because it would be self evident it would actually just churn people to alternatives where they have less leverage and visibility. But Apple couldn't resist bricking up the walled garden and now it's hostile to both them and their users, and to be honest, everyone on the planet since it is obvious that once this happens in the UK it will be silly for every government everywhere not to follow suit.


Who would want to be an iron clad gate keeper when the world is descending into authoritarianism?

Powerful people don't think this way. They think they can leverage the authoritarian regime to their own advantage. They're biased to ignore risks and seek out opportunities. That's what got them to their position of success!

They ARE the authoritarian regime.

This myth that capitalist perpetuate that the rich are not the government is the best lie out there.

The rich are the government. They are the national interests, countries' industries' is their property.

Yeah there was this great cartoon many years back where a guy is on his computer and the FBI is looking over his shoulder at his screen. A character named 'Facebook' is pushing him aside and says "Let me show you how to do it". When you look at the cartoon for a minute or so you see in the shadow in the back of the room this robot labeled 'Google' and he's just quietly observing.
Is this from Edward Snowden times
wdym? We are in Edward Snowden times. The timeline where Edward Snowden gave up on an awesome life to inform us, the global public, of the greatest scandal of all times and nothing happened, to be precise.
Both opinions are so lacking in nuance as to be effectively useless. The rich and their interests are in some contexts the the government, in other contexts they're competing with it.

Look at how Bill Gates relationship with government changes by the year and by the subject for a great example.

The only difference is that the government cant cater totally to Bill Gates, they got a couple thousand other capitalists to take care of in order to keep the country afloat.

The government is the ORGANIZED rich. It's not "everything Bill says goes".

You and me tho, the rest of us millions? We trust strangers that market themselves well, vote and then, just hope they do good by us.

Not all rich guys are part of the ORGANIZED RICH.

Some are, many/most aren't.

For some rich guys whole point of being rich is to be maximally independent.

Some billionaires are all kinds of weird flavor of Anarcho Capitalist (completely anti government), libertarian (small government), objectivist (suspicious of government and against overbearing regulations and mob control).

Not all, but many. I think there is an important distinction between independent minded successful people and crapitalists, the ones who collude with the government and enforce their fortunes via regulatory capture.

Not every rich person is obsessed with controlling the world and other people.

Many just want to live their own lives, and want as little as possible interaction with the government.

I'm not talking about a small capitalist with a nice house and a nice car.

I'm talking about the super rich.

Thr super rich have to be the government to be super rich and the little capitalists just ride the wakes made by the big guys.

These ideologies you mention are just political stances made by the rich in order to promote their measures amongst the poor.

Objectivism was made by Ayn Rand and it was promoted so much because it defended capitalism. They disseminate these ideas in order to promote their stances.

Libertarianism and ancapism are inconsistent because it pretends that large capitalists wouldnt immediately organize themselves into another large state power. A state is necessary to not have all out war between the powerful.

Ask any political science major and they dont take these ideas at face value because these ideologies cant exist as such.

They are more like life style politics than real political frameworks.

I suspect the reason they are even espoused is because they represent an immediate weakening of government regulation that can increase profits. The capitalists want people to think it can exist so they can have more power.

But a true libertarian or ancap reality is a pipe dream. Its true purpose is to create less oversight and thus more profits. Your average Joe, like you or me, has about 0 benefit from this.

They are until they aren’t. Look at the Russian regime. Even billionaires could find themselves on the outs. All that money and to live in fear of open windows.
Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity.

Can we have an “AI” post a reminder of this every time someone mentions secret world governments?

Well its not a secret world government. A lot of it is done out in the open.

Do you really think you control the government? That it is democratic?

People unknowingly help big corporations destroy smaller competitors by demanding more regulations. In reality, those same corporations often fund the very laws and "anti-corporate" movements that claim to restrain them using lobbying and fake grassroots[1][2] campaigns to shape rules that raise costs for smaller rivals and secure more market share.

This shouldn’t be surprising. Political competitive advantage is even taught in business schools, as Michael E. Porter explains in Competitive Strategy.

The only way to counter it is through competition: support companies that offer substitute services and stop playing into Google’s and Apple’s hands by calling for more regulations.

[1] https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/30/how-google-and-amazon-bankro...

[2] https://www.iccr.org/resolutions/lobbying-expenditures-discl...

I think the fact that Apple is having to fight this fight is evidence of why they were right to make a secure walled garden. I don’t know of any other service I would recommend my mother use for securely backing up her phone.

I think the UK is ultimately going to roll back this law. I don’t think this means that iCloud E2E is hostile to Apple or its users. I think Apple is going to win.

The war isn’t won by telling people to use GPG https://moxie.org/2015/02/24/gpg-and-me.html

> The war isn’t won by telling people to use GPG

Tangent, a friend and I started using Delta Chat with a chatmail relay and it's incredibly friendly to get started, and hides the fact GPG tech is being used from the user; one can export a bundle of the key data as needed and easily copy the key profile to a second device over local wifi (I was impressed at how smooth it was).

Not that I've kept track, but Delta Chat's UX is probably the first easy, no-nonsense implementation of using GPG tech as a foundation but keeping it away from the user experience I've encountered (and liked). It has it's pain points but I mean it just works and my buddy and I chat all day over it using a public relay.

Doesn't Protonmail do this as well? Proton to Proton accounts will use gpg under the hood?
> I think the fact that Apple is having to fight this fight is evidence of why they were right to make a secure walled garden

Would you mind explaining? I don't see how that's evidence.

yeah guys, we don’t win by using free and open technologies, we win if we all buy {NAMECORP} devices, that’s true victory right there, backed by a real warranty, that’s what grandma wants
I've had files in Apple's iCloud for 14 years now (had to look that up) and they're still there. I have no reason to believe that they won't still be there after I am dead. Apple is a big company with a big reputation to protect.

I can't say the same for the smaller services.

I don't have any grandmothers still alive but would certainly suggest iCloud for all family members.

(But, FWIW, I copy down everything from iCloud annually and store on a portable 1TB drive to have my own cloud-backup.)

I don't know in which part of this planet you are living in, but: 14 years ago you might have lived a free society where your ideas and thoughts could not cause you to get arrested, deported or killed.

Yeah, back then Apples iCloud might have been the best suggestion.

If you are trying to extrapolate from the past - which is a good thing in general - do not go back ONLY 14 years from now, but try a bigger time span, too.

I was born in Germany. When I extrapolate from the past on ANYTHING, I at least always start in the year 1933.

No, not a good idea if you expect that within your lifespan some entity might be able to be forced to tell a regime where you are hiding right now.

Taking control of your own data is shitloads of work, I and understand people do not have time it, and have other priorities.

I am just making my point here on how to better extrapolate and project from the past towards the future.

Taking control of your own data is shitloads of work, I and understand people do not have time it, and have other priorities.

That's not a physical law, but just the result of the current technological landscape.

If you have a free and open technology that is sufficiently user-friendly that grandma isn't going to lose all her photos, I'm all ears
This is the major issue, most free and open technology is not marketed as well; isn't anywhere near as user friendly and often times takes a lot more time and effort to setup. Most people don't care enough for that.
Okay, secure E2EE backups we've more or less perfected for a while. There's good F/LOSS solutions for that. And if you're willing to pay a bit, thinks like Backblaze come to mind. In other areas it's true that open-source stuff is less polished, but not backups. I mean, a few months back Apple had a regression where they were un-deleting people's photos, that's pretty nasty.
You haven't actually listed one yet. I can't think of one myself that Grandma could use safely.
> a few months back Apple had a regression where they were un-deleting people's photos, that's pretty nasty

As failure modes go, not great, but I'd say strictly less bad for the average user than losing photos you didn't plan to delete

The 35mm film camera, developed by a photo lab, with pictures stored in a show e box
Modern devices are so locked down that you couldn't build such software even if you wanted to.

Those corporations are part of the problem, not the solution.

Plug in a phone, run adb pull /storage/emulated/self/DCIM or wherever that Android garbage OS stores photos these days.

Local, doesn't need encryption since there's no middle in E2E that you need protection against, and simple.

Grandma can setup ~/.zshrc `alias bak=cd ~/phonephotos && adb pull ...` to make it even simpler.

When I'm done teaching grandma shell scripting, I'll let you know
You're way too slow at teaching...
I turnips were watches, I'd wear one by my side.
> If Apple had supported open iCloud alternatives for backup and other services from day one, it woudn't even be a discussion now.

You think the OS vendor is unable to snoop on data written to 3rd party clouds from their devices?

If they leave backdoors they will eventually be known.
Chances are the UK government would require them to create that backdoor for them, and Apple would publicize that (implicitly, if the UK government would also forbid them to tell it explicitly)
Didn't Apple already open up all their services to a backdoor in China? Was it ever really about privacy or is privacy just a convenient excuse to have a selection of elevated Apple solutions with privileges above 3rd parties.
Android has been a fraud for a long time now. Let's not pretend that the "open-source" mobile OS that was supposed to free us all from vendor and telco tyranny ever approached that promise.

Did they even really try?

As far as iCloud "alternatives" go... Android doesn't offer ANY legitimate syncing infrastructure to compete with iCloud, open or not.

You can install syncthing-fork or nextcloud
Thanks for the info.

If you have to install it, though, developers can't count on it being available to all or even most users.

Neither are legitimate competitors to iCloud
In some instances, nextcloud is better than icloud
You're comparing on-demand-cloud with setup-your-own-server-and-configure-everything-yourself-cloud

Those are two different markets

You can sync a backup over webdav on GrapheneOS.
A backup is not all a replacement for iCloud.

The point is to sync application data between native apps running on different (and even different kinds of) devices. PIM-style data (calendar, contacts, notes, bookmarks, and so forth) probably comes first for most people. Apple has also added useful stuff like Wi-Fi passwords and E-mail account configurations.

And then developers can create their own entries in the iCloud data store for their own apps. This is hugely useful.

I'm not aware of any similar facility that comes with Android, but I'd be happy to hear about it if there is.

You can use nextcloud for all pf that, not that I’d recommend it. There are solutions, even hosted ones.
Is there something else you'd recommend?

Regardless, though, if it's not built into the OS, developers can't rely on it being present on a majority of users' phones.

I switched to Android from iPhone because the sync options for iPhone are garbage.
But you neglected to state what built-in Android facility you find to be superior to iCloud for syncing data between applications.
I mean, I think the answer to this is the very simple: they think it will lead to more money.

I'm sure someone in a board meeting saw something about GrapheneOS and LineageOS and Cyanogen and feels like if they de-open Android, some (or most) of those users will move to vanilla Android, and that will lead to profits.

I'm not saying that they're right about this; I think ultimately very few (if any) people actually know how to run businesses and it's all about giving an appearance of maximizing profitability, and as long as it leads to a potential short term stock boost then these executives get their huge bonuses and they can just blame the next guy when things break.

This isn't really theoretical; look at how Jack Welch took one of the most respected companies in the world, more or less integrated ponzinomics to temporarily bump the stock prices, and 20+ years later GE is kind of a joke and isn't even on the S&P500 anymore.

I don't have exact numbers, but I'm sure Graphene, Lineage, and all of the mods combined are much less than 1% of all android users; as well as these customers being less profitable than average as a marketing target.

Posting this from my lineage phone.

Yes. They have 99.9% of the mobile phones.

The phone was the end of open computing, the tech companies obtained an iron grip on the platform, this time with fully accepted total monitoring and data collection down to everything you say, hear, everywhere you go, and with smartwatch biosensors, everything you feel. The only thing left is to get smart glasses and they will know everything you see. Smell they can probably interpolate.

It happened over a decade ago, and that might as well be 100 years ago in modern attention spans. All the governments have to do is pay the companies money, or simply force-legislate, or threaten under the table for all that info, and for permanent forever access to active tracking and monitoring.

AI provides all the analysis they need to watch the firehose. It's all there.

At this point it doesn't matter if an alternative comes. It'll be such the minority, that the social graph will fill all the holes. And they can simply track your IMEI regardless from the towers, listen in with other nearby microphones/phones. There is no escape.

All that remains is for the key to be turned for worse-than-1984 authoritarianism. It's right there, ready for the AI-empowered 50% of consumption controlled, 90% of stocks owned oligarchy to use.

Open computing still exists. It's just overshadowed by the prevalence of locked mobile devices because those are convenient and good enough for the vast majority, who would rather use those than a less convenient desktop, laptop, or even raspberrypi.

Surveillance on the internet is challenging to avoid, but internet surveillance and tracking doesn't extend to (outside-of-browser) local compute.

I don't dispute that at all. I don't think it matters, it just needs to look like they're doing something to avoid forks and the like.

That said, there might be stuff that's actually using open source Android for profit. For example, the Nook Glowlight Plus, which runs a modded version of Android, doesn't appear to have any direct or even indirect references to Android anywhere (and I had to contribute a bit to the discourse to even get the rooting to work [1]). I have no ideas about the inner dealings of Barnes and Noble, but it wouldn't surprise me if they're running a completely forked version of FOSS Android and aren't paying a dime to Google for it.

I suspect these are the things that Google is trying to crack down on.

[1] https://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=360563&pa...

simply i will be starting using Linux distributions on the devices which support them. Usually the gsm wcda etc are too much buried in patents and mostly closed source, but eventually how android bloomed initially as it was open source. I believe one day Linux will be there and again google and apple can have something to worry about and they will again open. One major thing is why google allowing people to use Linux apps on their android 16-17 by default i guess is because of this.
> If Apple had supported open iCloud alternatives for backup and other services from day one, it woudn't even be a discussion now

Why does Apple need to do extra work and increase support? The average user really doesn't care and choices just make it more complicated.

> The UK probably wouldn't have thought of the idea of

The UK has lost the plot long ago. It's been drama after drama.

> Who would want to be an iron clad gate keeper when the world is descending into authoritarianism

The gatekeepers.

This whole idea of conflating a closed system like Apple has created with authoritarianism is silly. If anything authoritarianism is the UK trying to force Apple to open up (so they exploit it to monitor their citizens).

Apple created a product, not just the iPhone but a whole ecosystem that’s supposed to help the user feel secure. There’s isn’t the only product out there and as long as they’re not preventing new competitors, everyone needs to back off.

They're not conflating them, they are pointing out that the closedness of the system and the control it gives Apple will be a useful tool to authoritarians who can force Apple to exert their power in certain ways.

Everyone who is not a public service is just "making a product", but when your product is actually half of all endpoints for digital services and communication and you insist on not handing control to the users, then you effectively control half the infrastructure.

>They're not conflating them, they are pointing out that the closedness of the system and the control it gives Apple will be a useful tool to authoritarians who can force Apple to exert their power in certain ways.

Oh well that’s not new. Apple has operated in China, Saudi Arabia, and Russia.

So the idea that they would be hesitant to dip their feet into complying with less savory governments is… laughable.

The current political landscape really isn’t new whatsoever. It might even be less authoritarianism overall than when Apple started in the 80’s.

Apple do everything in their power to prevent competition: forcing Safari, forcing payments to go through Apple so they can take their cut etc...
Apple does everything in their power (as allowed by governments who want to have that power) to protect their customers: forcing Safari, forcing payments through Apple, etc…
The tech bros are of the opinion that they can ride the rising authoritarianism like a Fremen riding a sandworm.
lol

Tech bros helped Israel genocide Gaza. Tech bros are pro-authoritarianism.

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