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kristianp parent
You've got a 16 inch Laptop, why are the arrow keys so tiny! And where's the PgUp PgDn Home End Insert Delete cluster? I wish a design-based shop like Framework would have some leadership in the keyboard area. This is why I have been exclusively Thinkpads for my last 3 laptops.

Something more niche is that I also enjoy the mouse buttons above the trackpad, I can move with the thumb and click with a finger.


psolidgold
The keyboards have full NKRO support and are fully mappable with QMK firmware, plus they offer blank key caps AND a macro or numpad input module. That feels like plenty of leadership to me - that's unheard of in any other laptop. Can't please everyone I guess.
account42
> Can't please everyone I guess.

This is such a lame response to valid criticism.

Key remapping is not a feature that you need hardware support for and neither are macros - both can be done in the OS and/or user-space software. Different prints on key caps are also not important at all since you shouldn't need them in the first place and hardly a response to someone being unhappy with the physical keyboard layout. So basically you're saying that because Framework already provides the easy parts that the user could already do in software now no one is allowed to complain about the physical layout that users cannot alter.

rkangel
Did you miss:

> numpad input module

You can literally add a physical numpad if you want: https://frame.work/gb/en/products/16-numpad?v=FRAKDM0001

eviks
If they designed their keyboard ergonomically, they wouldn't need numpad modules. But yes, can't please everyone, too many people with low standards easily pleasable
illiac786
Bit pedantic… being satisfied with less is a quality, let’s not forget this.
Frotag
> And where's the PgUp PgDn Home End Insert Delete cluster?

I'm typing this comment on a first gen framework 16 keyboard. It's the same layout as the second gen in OP, where PgUp/PgDown are bound to fn+KeyUp fn+KeyDown and Home/End are bound to fn+KeyLeft fn+KeyRight.

I actually prefer the bindings over dedicated buttons since if I need to use home/end, I'm probably also going to need to go to the previous/next line with the up/down keys.

jeberle
Likewise, I would kill for gaps between Esc/F1, F4/F5, and F8/F9. ThinkPads do this although it is very subtle.

The gaps let you use the the function keys by feel rather than looking at them. They tend to be mapped in debuggers so hitting the wrong key is a big deal.

I actually don't mind the smaller arrow keys as again, they make it easier to drive by feel rather than by looking.

diggernet
My fantasy for the Laptop 16 keyboard: Optional taller hinges and thicker bezel.

Think about it... Replacement hinges that separate the upper and lower shell by an extra 1/8-1/4" plus a thicker bezel to fill that gap. Suddenly (at the cost of a thicker laptop, for those of us who don't mind) you have extra space under the screen for longer key throw, contoured key caps, trackpoint, arrow keys that overlap the lower deck to allow a proper inverted-T layout, etc. Maybe even possible to retrofit old ThinkPad keyboards in there.

Hey, I can dream, can't I?

Narishma
At least the arrow keys are all the same size, unlike that super common awful design where the left and right keys are twice the size of the up and down keys.
DanOpcode
My last 3 laptops have also been Thinkpads. In addition to the mouse buttons above the trackpad, I also enjoy Thinkpad's trackpoint. Too bad Framework doesn't offer any mouse buttons and trackpoint on their keyboards, otherwise I might have considered them.
Rotareti
Same here. I've been using Lenovo/ThinkPads for the last 12 years mainly because of the pointer. It's perfect for programming. I'm more productive and focused when I keep my hands on the home row all the time. I don't see myself ever going back to a touchpad.
promiseofbeans
I mean, they made their keyboard swappable, with open-source firmware. If you are passionate enough, you can make (and sell) a replacement that solves these issues.
bigstrat2003
Making custom electronics goes way beyond "passionate" and into "has specialized skills and enough capital to get these made".
rendaw
I think "well just make the PR yourself" comments are too reductionist myself, but in this case Framework does have space for 3rd party components in the marketplace. I don't think it'd be crazy to imagine some custom keyboards will appear there.

And here's an example of someone making a custom keyboard: https://blog.perprogramming.com/posts/framework-ortholinear-... - it looks pretty awesome, and I'm fairly sure this is the first time I've ever seen a laptop with an ergo keyboard like that.

Framework 16 is a collection of modules, so I think complaining about the modules is fair game, but it could also be seen as a basis/standard that isn't expected to fit everyone's needs, but fit maybe 90% and allow other people to make the customizations they need easier, in which case complaining about they arrow keys on a single component does feel a bit trivial.

eviks
> but fit maybe 90%

Bad keyboards fit 0% to the point of injuring x%. Now try to trivialize this more realistic number

majewsky
How exactly does typing Fn+ArrowDown instead of PgDn lead to injuries?
eviks
Why would you miss the keyboard forest that's explicitly linked to in the comment for the tiny blade of grass that is PgDn?
naikrovek
You probably want a full numpad shifting the entire keyboard off-center as well?
winrid
No, this is something terrible the modern thinkpads have. My 2018 era thinkpads have the pg up/down arrow keys and a regular full width keyboard. That's what I want, anyway.
ivape
I was just badgering Gemini to find me a modern laptop with keys like the PowerBook g4. It looks like everything went chiclet style keys around 2012.

Still on the lookout for anything that’s not chiclet based, but they literally don’t exist.

jazzyjackson
How about the mechanical keys on the alienware m15 / m17?

https://dell.alienwarearena.com/alienware-debuts-the-worlds-...

silon42
I really wish it was just low profile...
I have half a mind to buy a really rough looking PB G4, gut it, and see what kind of very small Pi or N100 shaped thing I can fit inside.
sudokatsu
Still my favorite laptop of all time. Wish I could buy a new one with modern internals.

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