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bhouston parent
The degree to which US politics can be bought amazes me as a Canadian. It does seem that $$$ makes right in the US.

It isn’t so much the will of the people but the will of the rich and powerful.

For example, in the last US election there was billions spent in 2024 by the political parties, and outside groups:

Parties themselves: https://www.opensecrets.org/2024-presidential-race

Outside groups: https://www.opensecrets.org/outside-spending/by_group


Aurornis
Money has an influence but it’s an exaggeration to think that it’s the only factor.

In contested elections both sides usually have a large amount of spending. If you only read the headlines you’d think it was only the winning side that spent any money.

Another thing that isn’t obvious is that PACs have high win rates because they’re usually strategic about which races they go after. The money influence can only move the needle a little bit, so they need to pick races and topics where the voters are already close to evenly split.

There have also been a lot of high profile examples of extreme spending on elections that didn’t lead to the desired outcome.

robbie-c
> In contested elections both sides usually have a large amount of spending.

I think you're thinking about this in the wrong way.

What you're saying is that people who don't have a lot of money to spend usually don't make it to the election.

grafmax
Right, it’s those with the wealth who are determining policy. Essentially politics is controlled by the upper class, even if they do fight among themselves.
izzydata
And as soon as some class diving issue comes up where it is the 99.9% against the ultra wealthy it will become a non-partisan issue and get done immediately in favor of the ultra wealthy.
bilbo0s
This.

Money definitely sways elections.

The few case where it doesn't are normally attributable to other problems with the spendy campaign.

In Wisconsin, the conservatives spent enormous sums of money talking about high level worldview issues like DEI and immigration. Which is all well and good if you're in a state where that's relevant maybe? But out here in opioid infested flyover country where people were worried about losing their housing the next week, those worldview kinds of things were just dumb issues to focus so much money on.

So yeah, you can win an election against a big spender. But normally that big spender is actually so dumb and detached from the voters that what's really happening is that they're beating themselves.

But isn't flyover meth country red anyway?

American politics for all intents and purposes is a very simple game.

nielsbot
I think (hope) there's a limit. And if things get bad enough (sadly) then people will vote for change and their own interests over those of the ownership class. Maybe that's what happened here. But I will also point out that Elon Musk is uniquely detestable. But in most elections the candidate with the most money wins. [1]

Similarly Mamdani in NYC is facing some truly awful candidates.

Someone also pointed out to me that it's not so much the money on a politician's side that sways them, but the threat of PACs et al spending a ton of money to unseat them if they don't "play ball". [2]

[1] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politic...

[2] https://www.opensecrets.org/elections-overview/winning-vs-sp...

AnotherGoodName
Here's something to ponder. A lot of democracies have preferential voting. You vote in order of candidates and then counting votes is done in rounds where the lowest voted candidate is eliminated and those votes go to the next preference. This works well in avoiding a 2 party system since you can vote for third parties but still have your vote counted no matter which way the count lands in the end (eg. if it does come down to the 2 largest parties you haven't wasted a vote on a third party).

When there's no preferential voting system and therefore only two real parties in the political race it's easier to ensure you get the outcome you want either way. PACs don't really need to influence the election directly as much as ensure they have influence on politicians in the only two parties that have any power.

brewdad
This. The next time you hear about how some wealthy person gave money to a controversial candidate, check their sources. There is a high probability that they gave money to both leading candidates. Sometimes they will give more money to their preferred candidate but they want to be sure their interests are protected no matter the outcome.
ch4s3
We actually se an increasing number of elections where the loser outspends the winner by a large margin.
gjsman-1000
Case in point: Kamala Harris versus Donald Trump. Trump's campaign was about $541M cheaper.

https://www.opensecrets.org/2024-presidential-race

slipperydippery
This has gotten a lot more complex to accurately track since Citizens United.

Campaign spending isn't even close to the actual total spent on a campaign, any more.

vjvjvjvjghv
The absolute numbers are still astonishing and make it clear that without deep pockets you won’t get anywhere. Maybe you can make an argument that from a certain level on, money doesn’t help anymore. But the minimum amount is still very high.
ch4s3
Advertising is very expensive and political candidates have to pay retail rates. As the old adage goes, half of it is wasted but you don't know which half. However with political ads, all of the money spent on the losing candidate is wasted in a certain sense.

As media has fragmented, you really have to spend a lot to get in front of enough high propensity voters, and even more to turn out low propensity voters unless you're organically good at getting invited on to podcasts.

bhouston OP
> Case in point: Kamala Harris versus Donald Trump. Trump's campaign was about $541M cheaper.

You are skipping Super PACs which is pretty much exclusively ultra rich people political spending.

Here is the Super PAC spending and Kamala was destroyed by pro-Trump spending:

Conservative/Trump: $1,754,585,468

Liberal/Kamala: $786,990,015

https://www.opensecrets.org/outside-spending/super_pacs

jimt1234
IMHO, this is the problem with trying to regulate elections in the US. Elections have always been intended to be controlled by the wealthy. This is nothing new. So, in the unlikely event that Congress does add regulations that neuter Super-PACs, and the less-likely event that the Courts uphold the regulations, well, they'll just come up with a new way to fund the desired outcome. They'll call it Super-Duper-PACs or Turbo-PACs or some shit like that.
ch4s3
That's across all elections and issues, not just the presidential campaigns. About 30% of the top ten conservative PACs listed are for single senators or DeSantis. Lumpin them all together as Pro-Trump is just as dishonest as ignoring PACs.
bhouston OP
> Money has an influence but it’s an exaggeration to think that it’s the only factor.

Massive amounts of money is a requirement in the US. Of course strategy still plays a role but if you do not have massive amounts of money in the first place, you don't matter.

Because you have to raise massive amounts of money, you need to prioritize big spenders, and thus you have to be responsive to the demands of those large donors.

For example Miriam Adelson who gave Trump 1/5 of his total haul, reportedly conditioned her $100M on allowing Israel to annex the West Bank:

https://forward.com/fast-forward/618034/miriam-adelson-fundi...

slipperydippery
Combine a very-high necessary floor of funding for a wasteful Red Queen's Race opened up by Citizens United, and a bad system of elections that guarantees only two stably-viable parties, and you've got a system where money may not determine the winner, but it very much determines who even makes it on the ballot and the positions they are allowed to take on various issues, in a big way.
dpc050505
There can be more than two sides in healthy democracies.
jaredklewis
Said healthy democracies don’t have first past the post voting systems. Our system pretty much ensures only two viable parties.
gdbsjjdn
As a Canadian I don't understand why people think Canada is different. We're just one step behind the US because there's less money to be made. But look at the concentration of wealth in the Weston family, the McCains, Rogers or the Thomsons.

These folks have tremendous political influence which they are using to roll up Canada's economy and squeeze every cent out of the working class.

alephnerd
> We're just one step behind the US because there's less money to be made

There's plenty to be made - it's just very under the radar.

Anecdotally, extended family of mine run a fairly decent sized construction contracting company out in BC (Vancouver Island and Lower Mainland), and have been having family members and family friends donate as a group for both Conservative and NDP MLAs for over a decade now, as well as helping organize voter drives and non-partisan activities at Gurdwaras (if partisan activities came up, they tended to be in Punjabi and thus not reported on - but tbf, in depth local news is dead in much of Canada as well outside of metros).

Lobbying is common across democracies, but how it manifests is different. I feel that there is also a level of visibility into the American system that really highlights bad actors, but similar scrutiny isn't as common in other countries other than maybe the UK.

HWR_14
Is the same not true in Canada? In Edmonton's upcoming elections 39% of the donations came from corporations, but they made up 84% of the donated dollars.
bhouston OP
> Is the same not true in Canada? In Edmonton's upcoming elections 39% of the donations came from corporations, but they made up 84% of the donated dollars

It is quite different. Here is how campaign finance works:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_political_financing_in...

And this includes all PACs and equivalents. We don't have dark money PACs.

JSteph22
>as a Canadian

Canada arguably has an even more ingrained system of lobbying.

CyberDildonics
It wasn't always this extreme, but key decisions on what is allowed in the media and where money can come from have turned it into what it is now.
keiferski
There are plenty of examples where the candidate which spent the most lost. Or didn't even get to the election: Bloomberg is a good example.

I'd also bet that the vast, vast majority of voters are already going to vote for their chosen candidate, independently of whether they see $1 billion worth of ads or $5. If anything, "free" advertising like going on a podcast or working at McDonalds as a stunt seems to have more influence.

bhouston OP
> I'd also bet that the vast, vast majority of voters are already going to vote for their chosen candidate, independently of whether they see $1 billion worth of ads or $5.

This is true of elections in two party systems. Most people have parties they align with and don't switch often. But there are persuadables.

The billions spent on political ads was spent for a reason. Similar to why billions are spent on marketing in general. There is the old adage that sure half of the marketing budget is wasted, but it is never clear which half ahead of time.

https://www.b2bmarketing.net/half-the-money-i-spend-on-adver...

keiferski
There's also the fact that it's something of an arms race, where not spending the billions is not really an option for serious candidates, whether it is "worth it" or not. It's not exactly something that can be tested scientifically, unless a serious candidate wants his campaign to be an experiment.
slipperydippery
Get Out the Vote is where it's at. "True swing" (not self-reported swing, most people lie because they think being a swing voter is more socially desirable, I suppose) is indeed a tiny sliver.

It's about convincing your people they need to show up or the other side will make your grandkids shit in litter boxes, or whatever lies it takes.

goalieca
As a Canadian, I cannot stand the “as a Canadian… $something_smug” trend. We look down on the USA and pretend our poop doesn’t stink.
bhouston OP
Our political donation system is infinitely better though than the US.
goalieca
One criticism is that parties can be bought too cheaply in Canada.
_joel
Just watched a Benn Jordan video on creepy AI, particularly Flock Safety. No suprise that the some of the same people involved in this article are involved in the data brokerage company (which seems awfully dystopian). They've bumped in hundreds of millions in lobbying.
vimwizard
ever heard of "Laurentian elite" ?
bhouston OP
> ever heard of "Laurentian elite" ?

I don't think that is the same thing at all. Laurentian elite just refers to Canada's largest population cluster as a whole and saying that the upper class in general is influential, sure. But it is far from saying that a small number of billionaires are absolute key in the Canadian elections.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurentian_elite

Canada has significant limits to political spending and I think that is amazing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_political_financing_in...

camdroidw
Not really true, Kamala outspent Trump 2:1 and had the media machinery on her side
bhouston OP
> Not really true, Kamala outspent Trump 2:1 and had the media machinery on her side

Only if you exclude outside funding. Conservative SuperPACs were incredibly well funded compared to Liberal ones last election: https://www.opensecrets.org/outside-spending/super_pacs

And they were funded more than the official candidates themselves. Because then these groups can act without limits on their spending.

MangoCoffee (dead)
flatb
Liberalism is the core of American conservatism. That’s less true elsewhere.
throwawayqqq11
In that light, trump is no conservative at all and still, the GOP backs him. So are the republicans no conservatives either?

I bet a lot of trumps base considers themselfs conservative but look away from basically every inner political move trump made.

This is what confuses me about the "conservative core" your are speaking of. Where is it?

anthem2025
Trump is absolutely conservative.

Hes simply the logical conclusion of 50 years of republicans becoming increasingly extreme.

slipperydippery
Notably, this was basically never true of the modern, post-Nixon and post-authoritarian-christian-courting Republican voters.

They (and a lot of democratic voters!) were always skeptical of things like very-liberal trade policy. The gap between that long-running strain in the voters, and what the bipartisan neoliberal consensus on trade (and immigration, for all Republican politicians complained about it when campaigning) had looked like among nearly all Federal elected officials from the early '80s on, is exactly the kind of thing that Trump exploited to swiftly take over the entire party.

geodel
Agree. That's why no Canadian ever wants to come to US work, shopping or medical treatments. Commercialization of all aspects of life is horrible in USA.
smt88
This take is not based in reality. Despite issues with the US, net migration data shows that the US has been brain-draining Canada for most of the last 50 years.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/36-28-0001/2025007/artic...

GuinansEyebrows
as a person who grew up in an american border town, i'm thinking the person you're responding to is being sarcastic. there were always a lot of canadian license plates on the roads and in parking lots where i grew up.
guywithahat
It doesn't, money has surprisingly little effect on competitive elections
myrmidon
What does "surprisingly little" mean to you? US election spending in 2024 was almost $2bn (mostly presidential election).

If media presence had surprisingly little effect on outcomes, then I would expect candidates to spend surprisingly little or be constantly outperformed by "underfunded" candidates-- neither of which is the case.

guywithahat
It's a game theory problem. There are lots of studies around executive performance, and what people find is that the specific executive/CEO has basically no impact, while things like general industry growth and direction is what matters (suggesting executive/CEO decisions are just a game of chance). But obviously I could also choose a bad executive who would tank the company. What's really happening is when everyone is trying their hardest, all of the executives are as good as they can be, and the things they do tend to look more like luck than performance.

It's the same thing in elections. Because everyone is competitive, who donates what money or it's amount tends to not really matter. If a candidate were to sabotage their campaign they would lose, but in a competitive election it doesn't end up being statistically significant.

notahacker
The old "half of my advertising budget is wasted, but I have no idea which half" quote springs to mind...

Not sure how you're defining "underfunded" candidates, but the incumbents in competitive races where enormous amounts are spent by both sides to try to gain an advantage don't win anywhere near as often as the incumbent in nom-competitive races which parties and PACs barely bother spending in. Ultimately the spending is positional and cancels out, and the biggest spender often loses because there's not nearly enough difference between the candidates' spending levels to affect whether voters hear their messages.

keiferski
This seems like a big number, but frankly in context it's actually quite trivial. We're talking about the lead office in the world's most dominant country, and the amount spent on the election is roughly equivalent to...the amount spent on ice cream or manga/comic books, per year.

There is a lot of money in America, and comparatively not that much is actually spent on the election. Maybe it's still too much in an ostensibly democratic system, but it's worth noting.

myrmidon
> This seems like a big number, but frankly in context it's actually quite trivial.

It's not really helpful that the number is tolerable in terms of national GDP: election spending being so large in terms of median wealth simply excludes lots of capable potential candidates that are not well positioned to raise money (for whatever reason).

It also leads to completely outsized pandering to "rich donor" interests, because those finance the largest share of the campaigns, which is an obvious problem if you want to call yourself "democracy" (instead of oligarchy or plutocracy).

keiferski
Yes, I didn’t say it was a good thing, I said it’s actually surprising that comparatively little money is spent on influencing the election. More money is spent on buying ice cream in a single year than on a once-every-four-years election.
notRobot
So then shouldn't be a problem to stop it entirely, right?
ch4s3
How do you stop people from running 3rd party ads in the US while not violating the 1sr amendment? You get into dicey territory quickly. The old overturned election laws were used in many cases to prevent books from being published in election years.
icandoit
>The old overturned election laws were used in many cases to prevent books from being published in election years.

Which laws and which books? I can't find anything.

pcfwik
I assume the poster is referencing Citizens United v. FEC, specifically about the government's use of the 2002 Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act to restrict showing of political documentaries (apparently, called "Hillary: The Movie" and "Celsius 41.11").

While (as far as I know) the law was never actually used to ban books (only documentaries), the case became infamous because the government argued that it had the right to ban books if it wanted to. See, e.g., the NYTimes article below: "The [government's] lawyer, Malcolm L. Stewart, said Congress has the power to ban political books, signs and Internet videos, if they are paid for by corporations and distributed not long before an election.".

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/25/washington/25scotus.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/cert/08-205

ch4s3
Yeah I made a mistake. There were a couple of films the FEC went after and they claimed the power extended to books as you pointed out. I was under-caffienated.
guywithahat
No, because then the race wouldn't be competitive. It's a game theory problem, and it only holds true when both sides try their best. It's just that when both sides are trying their best, money doesn't seem to have a significant impact. It's why presidential races are often won by the candidate with less money (sometimes significantly less, like half the funding)
intermerda
If money has surprisingly little effect on competitive elections, why do candidates ask for it?
Perz1val
Yeah, cuz no matter who wins can be bought anyway... That's not good either
iancmceachern
Do you have a source?
MangoCoffee
just google kamala harris campaign fundraising vs trump. 2024 election just happened not too long ago. she got more money than trump and yet lose.

money is not the only factor.

thejazzman
elon poured a ton of money into strategic locations right at the end, such as running a fake lottery in PA. many attribute the outcome on the role he played.

may not be the most money, but it's the most effective use of money.

PA roads were littered with trump signs because of people being paid to litter our streets with them. for months.

people are, sadly, very easily influenced. companies wouldn't pour so much into advertising, in general, if it didn't have such an effective influence

prasadjoglekar
Reid Hoffman poured an equal amount of money thru Future Forward PAC on the Harris side.
guywithahat
For fun I did a non-scientific analysis of presidential candidates a while back, and found funding raised wasn't statistically significant https://thomashansen.xyz/blog/election-spending-isnt-statist...
digital_sawzall
Kamala raised $1.65 billion compared to Trump's $1.1 billion [0]. Not like it was a massive difference. Especially because that does not take into account super pacs, like Musks $200million in Pennsylvania.

[0] https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2024-11-15/trump-har...

Probably what the money was spent on should be taken into account too.

Most campaigns stretch the truth a bit here and there, but from what I personally saw and from what I read from other states where the campaigning was more intense generally the Harris campaign did not stretch nearly as far as the Trump campaign.

I'd expect that this let the Tump campaign get more out of a given amount of spending than the Harris campaign could.

Chinjut
The election where the billionaire prominently campaigned for by the richest megabillionaire in the world won proves that money plays little role in politics.
myrmidon
Maybe, but Trump spent over half a billion on his 2024 campaign. Are you suggesting the outcome would have been unchanged had he spent a "sane" amount like $50M total? Because I don't think so.

Furthermore, in a country with somewhat free media you would always expect populist candidates to outperform with a given budget, because their platform is much better aligned with media interest; mass media does not want boring budget plans or quaint reforms-- rage-bait sells way better and nets populists tons of "free" online presence.

iancmceachern
Yeah but if you ask chatgpt:

"Absolutely, money does have a measurable impact on political outcomes"

https://www.investopedia.com/surprising-thing-billionaires-s...

https://www.opensecrets.org/elections-overview/winning-vs-sp...

decremental (dead)

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