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rich_sasha parent
I am torn on this.

On the one hand, I strongly agree with this article. This kind of state ownership never brings anyhing good. I don't see how this is different.

On the other, it is hard to deny how impressive the new wave of Chinese manufacturing is. No longer are they just making knock offs of Western products with stolen IP. BYD for example seems genuinely innovative, a top product. There are many other examples.

Now, these are clearly not state-ran enterprises, but equally the state is heavily involved. Or, Nvidia is concerned because China can mandate that the whole country pivots to using Chinese GPUs, seemingly with no deteiment to their AI research, while amazingly benefitting their own chip production ability.

I'm not sure how I reconcile these two.


margalabargala
> On the one hand, I strongly agree with this article. This kind of state ownership never brings anyhing good. I don't see how this is different.

There's short term stable and long term stable.

Having a BDFL can, when the BDFL is genuinely concerned with the welfare of whatever they are managing, result in something much better than what would be created if designed by committee. This is equally true for software projects and nation-states. China, Singapore, Linux, Python, etc.

In the long term, having a BDFL really relies on that "B" being there, and especially when a nation state is involved, the tendency of human nature to corrupt will likely eventually take over.

Basically, while China is acting with great coordination from the now with good results, they are doomed to eventually either fall to pieces when the diktat is bad, a la "Great Leap Forward", or else transition to a more stable (less authoritarian) system.

They can only do things like:

> China can mandate that the whole country pivots to using Chinese GPUs

so many times before getting it wrong disastrously, and the longer it goes the more likely someone will get it wrong.

woooooo
They've lifted a literal billion people out of third world, no-indoor-plumbing poverty in the last 30 years.

And, to the point of the article, SMIC is already doing 5nm manufacturing.

Political systems are more complex than dictator/freedom, there are lots of stakeholders. The USA stakeholders tend to be short-term focused financial engineers, this is separate from whether we have checks and balances or what color tie the President wears.

margalabargala
Yes, they have had great success.

The comments you made about political systems indicate you don't really grasp my point.

- Governments are formed of people. People make mistakes.

- Power tends to corrupt, and the likelihood of corruption scales with the quantity of power and the quantity of people passing through the role (that is, one person may truly have best interests at heart, but will their successor? Or their successor?)

The result of the above is that when assessing long term stability of systems, problems that can happen inevitably will. If a system allows massive sweeping changes, then they will happen, and eventually an incorrect one will be made.

For example, let's take the scenario above, where Chinese companies were ordered to begin using Chinese GPUs. Did that work out? Yes. Could it have gone poorly? Yes.

Will every similar decision go as well? No. Thus, a situation where the "you must use Chinese GPUs" dictation is possible, is less stable than one where it is not.

You brought up a comparison to the US, because the US and China always get compared I guess? The US does this sort of thing more weakly, so gains less instability from this particular source of instability. Whether it's currently more unstable in other ways is left as an exercise for the reader.

woooooo
Im saying that people live in a culture, and that sets the parameters of what's conceivable.

You're commenting from the post-reagan consensus, which inevitably leads to Intel's current situation. But it doesn't have to be like that, America had a different consensus from 1930-1970.

(BTW, deepseek was trained on nvidia.)

Xi doesn't personally set every industrial policy in China, its a ton of people all over the country. Culture.

margalabargala
I think we're kind of talking past each other maybe.

What I'm saying reduces down to, "the scale of effect that humans are able to have on a system, will eventually lead to problems of that scale on a system".

If you can dictate that all industries within a country must do some thing, that will eventually cause problems with all industries within the country.

Culture doesn't really have anything to do with it. Whether the person making that dictation is Xi or Trump or some random bureaucrat doesn't really have anything to do with it.

woooooo
Yeah, but that is a continuum and not binary. Xi isnt personally in a room pulling levers that control everything.

There are thousands of bureaucratic orgs and corporations making their own calls, deepseek and qwen were both trained on nvidia hardware, while several chip startups and SMIC ramp up.

The nature of those calls is influenced by culture. If you have a culture of MBAs, you get Intel's actions over the last 15 years.

thisisit
> No longer are they just making knock offs of Western products with stolen IP. BYD for example seems genuinely innovative, a top product. There are many other examples.

I think many people really underestimate this part. If you watch Back to the Future, they sort of deride Japanese goods as cheap knock offs. Later Japanese became an innovation powerhouse. Same thing happened with China. Previously derided for low quality knock-offs is now known for innovation.

No one seems to have the state-run enterprise explanation for Japan but everyone does with China. Because of Chinese Law. While state help is necessary for companies to succeed that alone is not enough.

In the long term small improvements can enable innovation. But if you get stuck on coasting on laurels for a long time it leads to decline in innovation and especially motivation. And when I mean not only in releasing new products but also in manufacturing and other related areas.

chatmasta
I didn’t even know BYD existed until I was visiting Australia, riding in my cousin’s Tesla, and he pointed to the dealership. I’d never seen one because they don’t sell in the US due to tariffs and the general economic environment. I found it striking that I’d been completely sheltered from this company and its products without even realizing it.
epolanski
People who think that china makes crap products has probably never been in china in the last 5+ years and their knowledge about their products end up with Shein or Temu crap.
fuckaj
My perception changed when the iPhone came out. But even before tbat alot of stuff was made on China and it cant all be crap!
jajko
Yeah folks judge Chinese output by 1$ usb cables, ignoring how ie DJI came to the market and ate everybody's lunch including US companies like gopro who basically had to cancel whole drone product pipeline overnight, thats how badly behind they were.

When I picked up my DJI drone many years ago the amount of polish was top notch - hardware worked flawlessly, software was fast and without any glitch. I was looking for any signs like 'designed in Germany' or similar but nope, all Chinese.

People think about 3rd world countries and somehow end up thinking about the very definition of permanent incompetence - russia and its satellites. Like they still put chips from stolen wash machines into their ballistic missiles. When China is in comparison more like a humiliated, smart, deeply focused, hard working, ignoring some pesky human rights group of people who grokked well they don't need to bow to any foreign powers anymore if they focus and work hard on specific goals.

marcosdumay
> Or, Nvidia is concerned because China can mandate that the whole country pivots to using Chinese GPUs

The US can do that too, it's not the ownership structure that is stopping them.

In fact, the US used to do a lot of that before the 70s.

Coffeewine
Hasn’t the US already done that? Huawei’s AI processors are banned in the US, with an effort made to ban them in US allies worldwide.
Workaccount2
The thing the US should fear the most, ironically, is China moving further and further away from communism.

If something happened to Xi and the party elected a hard nosed communist, China would unravel itself.

prewett
Xi is a return towards Communism, or at least Communist-style control. And things have slowly gotten worse over his tenure. I think zero-Covid and the Shanghai debacle lost a lot of trust, too.

I don’t foresee the Party choosing someone more hardline than Xi, though. China has always been authoritarian, but collective ownership was new and an unmitigated disaster. They are too smart to go back that direction, although if they did, I could see that happening.

KerrAvon
The US government can, for example, discourage using Chinese chips using various policy levers without taking direct corporate ownership. That sort of thing is not that unusual.

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