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Kim_Bruning parent
I never really got into "phone" progrmaming, always waiting for the shenanigans to die down. But somehow the shanigans have gotten worse and for a significant chunk of the world population, the phone is the only computation device they have at all.

donmcronald
I never got into it because I was convinced developers would refuse to give up control over distribution when Apple started doing it. I wish I was right, but here we are.
worldsayshi
Developers sometimes seem to be as in control as farmers are of the distribution of their produce. There's no absolute rule that gives the owners of large scale distribution networks power over both producer and consumer. It's just laws of convenience. It's easier for everyone to go through a few or just a single common broker.

There's no law against a more democratic way to implement the broker either but it requires interesting methods of coordination and/or decision making that doesn't seem to exist yet?

donmcronald
It limits choice. I don’t have any experience building mobile apps because I didn’t want to buy into an unfair ecosystem. That means fewer mobile apps even if distribution networks change tomorrow.
brailsafe
> I don’t have any experience building mobile apps because I didn’t want to buy into an unfair ecosystem

Seems like it wouldn't be much of a stretch to compare that statement to not starting a business because the economy is unfair. People indeed don't start businesses when the bureaucratic or tax overhead outweighs the financial benefit, but nobody loses sleep over an individual's hypothetical missed opportunity to learn a new skill but them. Doesn't matter to the platform owners unless it also stops being profitable, so it's their job to maintain the profitability for their ecosystem despite whatever barriers they put up.

BrenBarn
> There's no law against a more democratic way to implement the broker either but it requires interesting methods of coordination and/or decision making that doesn't seem to exist yet?

It's not enough to not have a law against it, we need to have and enforce laws requiring it.

worldsayshi
I'm not so sure that we can even rely on legislation for this. I think we need new ways or new technology for collective decision making that doesn't rely on a pre existing healthy legislative environment.
jeroenhd
Some developers did. Others, who didn't care so much, got into the app store instead, and got rich off it. Users didn't care about such principles and mobile-first has been a viable strategy for a long time now. Not having something of an app is a problem if you want to stay in many markets.
askafriend
Developers want a stable, secure platform where they can reach customers that trust the platform and are willing to transact. Everything is downstream of that, including any philosophy around control.

Developers are businesses and the economics need to work. For that, safety and security is much more important than openness.

Kim_Bruning OP
Oh! Classic Survivorship bias. You're only looking at the devs who went into business in the phone ecosystem in the first place. I'm thinking that they're there despite the barriers to entry ('shenanigans'), and the ones you encounter happen to be those who happen to place a higher value on 'other values'. As the ecosystem gets locked down more, this effect becomes stronger.

Meanwhile, you're not looking at those who left, or those who decided to never enter a broken market dominated by players convicted of monopolistic practices.

This seems much more intuitive than a hypothesis where somehow people would prefer to enter a closed market over a fair and open market with no barriers to entry.

Remember, monopolists succeed because they are distorting the market, not because they are in fact the most efficient competitor.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias

saganus
Money is a powerful motivator. For better or worse.
bobajeff
You now need to have an online account to setup and login on a Windows desktop. It's obvious what the trend is and it's not allowing consumers control over their stuff.
gaudystead
Not related to the OP, but no you don't.

Just look up how to skip the "OOTB (out of the box) experience" and you can still bypass having to set up a cloud account on Windows 11 and can just set up a local account like normal. :)

goku12
I have been a computer user, developer and a system administrator for longer than I care to recount. I don't like Windows and I don't use it at work or home. But I do encounter it from time to time, and the experience is worse each time. The last time it happened, I couldn't figure out the way to skip/bypass the cloud account set up. Would it have been possible if I tried harder, starting with a web search? Perhaps. But there is no way an average system user is going to have the patience or often the skill necessary to do it. I'm not challenging their intelligence. But people have other priorities than to jump through a dozen hoops just to preserve privacy. I would do the same if I had to set up a Windows system for urgent work.

These sorts of hurdles exist to push more and more users to their favorite workflow until the dissenting voice is too feeble to notice when they finally pull the plug on the straightforward method. The intent is certainly there, since they are quite evidently boiling the frog. Just wait for the fine day when you wake up in the morning to see an HN story just like this one about Windows login as well.

whatamidoingyo
I was using Linux for 10+ years consistently before starting my current role, which is for a Windows-only business. And my god, the first few months was super annoying. ctrl+alt+t doesn't open a terminal?! click, click, click. No Vim. Wtf.

Setting things up was much more complicated as well. But I stuck it out, still hate Windows, but I've gotten a bit used to it.

> But there is no way an average system user is going to have the patience or often the skill necessary to do it.

It's like two commands. Super easy.

goku12
> But I stuck it out, still hate Windows, but I've gotten a bit used to it.

So you tolerate it. Matches what I felt. But it was more the stuff I couldn't control - like the timing of the updates and the incessant ads.

> It's like two commands. Super easy.

For you, yes. But problem for the average user is the patience required to figure it out. Also, I think the edition I used didn't have that option at all. Because I vaguely remember searching for a solution and not finding one that worked for me. Whatever it was, it will soon be like that for more or less everyone.

Perz1val
IIRC the method was to press F10 to open cmd and run a command there. I've heard that something changed in recent builds and it's harder
goku12
Eh! I really hope that nobody forces me onto windows again.
skeezyboy
>But there is no way an average system user is going to have the patience or often the skill necessary to do it

Doesnt this pretty much describe the entirety of the Linux experience though?

goku12
That's why most people are not on Linux. I'm not talking about people who can search the internet or kids who just keep at it till they figure out the registry in two days. I'm talking about people who have absolutely no interest in the machine other than to browse the internet or use the office suite. Surprisingly, there are far more of such people than you'd imagine.
lazycouchpotato
Last I checked, Microsoft was trying to get rid of it.

https://www.tomshardware.com/software/windows/microsoft-elim...

It's still possible to set up using only a local account, but who knows for how long.

mrheosuper
The day windows become "Online-Only" OS will be the day i move from Windows for good.
reciprocity
With how much worse the experience of using Windows has gotten, why wait? Many hills have already come and gone. This is the hill you're willing to die on?
kmacdough
A stepping stone on a path.

Have a login. Pin features to a login. Mandate a login but w/ backdoor. Close the back door. "It's a backdoor, why not use the front door?"

WD-42
For now. History has shown that workarounds for defaults tend to stop working at some point.
IshKebab
Not quite yet - install Windows 11 IoT LTSC with Rufus and you get a perfect version of Windows with no ads, account requirements, etc.

But I agree about the trend. Microsoft will probably block this workaround eventually.

Software distribution control didn't start with phones, it started with game consoles.
goku12 (dead)
lawlessone
i made and released some apps in the early days. Got tired of it and got tired of the reminders from google to add banners, screenshots, submitting icons to support multiple resolutions.. notifications that apps i haven't touched in decade are no longer compatible etc.

so much extra work involved that isn't building the app.

I worry how this will affect fdroid etc.

ahdanggit
Got tired of this with a few extensions I made too. It felt like every year or so they'd completely break some API and I'd have to go switch to the new one, then they wanted a privacy policy, then justification for permissions, etc etc. Wasn't worth the trouble eventually and I just let them die.
frollogaston
I got into it then got out. Everything about the Apple ecosystem was infuriating. I don't even care about the ideology here, just the annoyance.
paxcoder (dead)

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