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tgsovlerkhgsel parent
Stop buying Android and what? Buy an iPhone that's even more locked down or live like an outcast that can't access essential services? Because those are the realistic options.
fluoridation
For years I've been buying middle-of-the-road Android phones because they provide pretty good bang for the buck, but if I can't use a computer I paid for however the fuck I want, I'm just going to start getting the cheapest crap I can get away with and use it as little as possible. "Vote with your wallet" doesn't have to mean total abstinence.
opan
I think getting a flagship device that's a few years old probably makes for a better experience. I check the LineageOS supported devices list, then search eBay for something from there.
itsanaccount
> live like an outcast

in all things. I would encourage you and everyone who reads this post to stare down this option with realistic consideration. In a society this broken, it is the solution to more and more things. To checkout, to accept the hard mode because to pick the path of convenience is to be exploited.

Again, and again, and again.

01HNNWZ0MV43FF
I've been doing it. That's why I'm vegan.
rockemsockem
I'm sorry, this is such a funny follow up comment, I literally lol-ed when I got to it.
platevoltage
Eating on hard-mode is what we do.
itsanaccount
I respect at least your choice but I'm not growing tofu on the farm. Veganism is one of those protests that while i appreciate going after factory farms, you're only enabled to do so by large corporations.
platevoltage
You've never tried growing tofu? It pops out of the ground in little cubes. Super easy, barely an inconvenience.
echelon_musk
> _I'm not growing tofu on the farm_

What else are you growing?

jazzyjackson
Flip phones can access essential services just fine, if some business or government office is only allowing something to be done via smartphone app, that’s a problem.
hsbauauvhabzb
A problem for who? Go ahead and raise it, I’m sure the government office will get right on fixing it.
nunclieh
>live like an outcast that can't access essential services?

I don't own a smartphone and I am happy as ever. I used to own one a while back, but it wasn't worth the effort and the rage when it was slow.

If a service can be accessed only with a smartphone, I complain (which is of little use).

kovac
Do you not have to use a 2FA app for things like banking? In Singapore, they are phasing out 2FA options other than the banking app. The banking apps only work on iPhones and Google-approved Android phones. It's pretty bad.
nunclieh
Wow. My bank provided me with an external token to do 2FA. If I have to guess, however, the code that generates the OTP code (assuming that is a code that is requested) should be easy enough to reverse engineer.

I admit, though, that being forced to RE a f**ing android app just to do banking is grounds to change the aforementioned bank. Isn't there any other alternative in Singapore?

9cb14c1ec0
It's kind of stupid when you consider the number of people who don't have screen locks (or else have easily guessable ones) on their phones.
endgame
It really isn't that bad. I've never owned a smartphone, and can do everything I need through websites and the occasional phone call.
busymom0
What if people stopped buying brand new Android phones and instead bought used ones and then installed alternative Android versions and app stores.
out_of_protocol
Can't access banks, ticket systems etc. unfortunately we are in the era of tightened screws, the freedom is running out :(
eraviloi
Lol all these things work via the web. You just log on via the browswer. Not everything needs an app.
homebrewer
In your country, maybe. Over here you're dead in the water without a smartphone — can't access banking except by going to the branch and standing in the queue for an hour or two, can't access most government services. Limit your selection of goods (like electronics, but not only that) by something like 90% (and also increase prices by 30-50%) because brick and mortar shops sell old crap at much higher cost than it was ever worth, and the only real solution is buying from a major marketplace which is only available as a mobile application.

This concept originated in China and is spreading. Beware.

_ache_
Can I ask which country? You said originated in China but is it China or another east Asia country?
nunclieh
@achrono (I cannot reply to the other post, I don't know why). Yes, you can use just a web browser.

> Mobile Payments They work with a card, no smartphone required. Moreover, cash didn't cease to exist.

> Navigation Again, physical maps are a thing. Google Maps or OpenStreetMap are accessible by browser. Having a physical map and having to follow road signs can be a beautiful experience. If one is addicted to a machine that tells them where to go, navigators are still a thing (no smartphone required)

>All manner of IoT devices

Don't put an IoT device in your house if you don't know what it does and how it works. If the only way to interface to it is via an app... then you don't know what it does and how it works. Don't put it in your house.

>Wearables

I don't even know what are wearables: if I write it on Firefox it underlines it in red. By doing a quick search, I can see images of watches. Watches can work without an app. Moreover, watches that work without an app are usually less expensive than the other kind.

>Digital versions of ID (Mobile Passport Control)

Don't. I know that some governments are pushing this crap thinking it's the future. Simply don't. Imagine you're at the airport and you accidentally drop your passport. You pick it up, nothing lost. Imagine you drop your phone and it stops working. You lost:

- Your documents - Your money (if you rely on your phone for paying and don't have cash with you, which seems a growing trend among people I know) - All your ways to contact people for help

Instead:

- Your wallet is stolen: you lost all your money and your cards, but you have your documents (at least the passport because it surely does not fit a wallet). - Your phone is stolen: you lost all the ways to contact people, but you can buy another one - Your passport is stolen: you can contact your embassy.

Smartphones are becoming a SPOF (Single Point Of Failure) for our lives.

Y_Y
> physical maps

Are you for real? I'm totally on board with using free and open alternatives, but if you're not going on a mountain trail then a physical map is going to be drastically worse than any navigation software.

Also FWIW I have a card-sized passport that I can easily get stolen with my wallet.

nunclieh
Ok, I admit I do not own any such passport (for now).

But for navigation... I use a mixture between physical maps and directions and online data. Specifically, before departure, I simply use OpenStreetMap to look at the route. If the route is very long I know I will be traveling by highways, so I rely on noting down only some keypoints. Then at the end of the route (near the destination), where I know I will get lost, I screenshot the map and I print it out (or have it on my laptop, it depends).

achrono
Other than banks & ticketing, there is a whole host of things that do in fact need an app.

* Mobile payments

* Navigation

* All manner of IoT devices

* Wearables!

* Digital versions of ID (Mobile Passport Control)

etc.

So no, you can't just use the web.

A4ET8a8uTh0_v2
But, and I hesitate to point it out, because I am finding that people think it is somehow minimal entry stakes, one does not need any of those things..
homebrewer
You wouldn't get very far without WeChat and AliPay in China. Last time a good friend of mine was there, many merchants simply refused to accept cash. The few that did had made it known how much they were inconvenienced by doing that.

Same for basically every interaction with locals, for accessing government services, or even just using the public transportation.

It's pretty similar for locals AFAIK.

And before anyone replies that he didn't have to travel there — no, he did, unless he was willing to look for another job (which are very sparse here, you hold on to a good job for dear life).

goda90
Aren't there attestation frameworks under development that they could start using too?
kovac
The 2FAs require their mobile app sometimes.
GuinansEyebrows
you can usually just use the web-interfaces for those services. less convenient, sure, but the options are there.
hsbauauvhabzb
What types of tickets are you referring to here? I’m not familiar with that restriction.
endgame
He's talking about concert tickets and similar entertainment events, where several of the major providers no longer provide PDF tickets and instead only send them to a phone app. It is possible to make enough of a stink and collect tickets on the day, but that option is increasingly difficult to find.
logicchains
Buy Apple; the point is to hurt Google. If enough people do it, Google might reconsider. Show them that the open ecosystem is the only value Android added, and if they refuse to bring back the open ecosystem then their platform will slowly die. Won't be long until Google's as locked-down as Apple at this rate, so all Android gives you is a power-hungry OS that protect your privacy even less than iOS does.
jraph
Buying closed stuff to show we want an open ecosystem?

At this point, I believe the most effective ways one can help with this is:

(1) advocacy - it's slow and difficult, but having people at least agree / be familiar with the idea that closed stuff is bad is a good first step.

Open ecosystems can't work for the general public if it's trapped in closed networks that won't work on anything else than the two big mobile operating systems, so making people start using open chat apps and such will help a lot. It'll take years, but so be it. It's worth it I think.

(2) helping improve the more open stuff.

I think Linux mobile for instance is a potentially viable alternative in the medium term for at least the basic use cases: Calls, SMS, GPS / Maps, Signal, photos. All this has no reason not to work with some polish. I daily drove Linux mobile 4 years ago for a year. The main thing I'm missing is good hardware for it, and a lot of polish but nothing impossible. Yeah, indeed, no payment with the phone (Google Pay / Apple Pay). But it's still possible to use the physical cards and not use the phone for this.

thyristan
You've got to be kidding. Doesn't work, Apple is even more locked down than what this article announces. No sideloading whatsoever, signature checks ala Play Protect are mandatory and cannot be switched off, no alternative app stores, etc.
outofpaper
You can side load three apps at a time outside the EU and unlimited inside the EU.
vachina
Not sure why this is downvoted. The entire value proposition of Android is the semi-open OS. For things you can’t do with Apple devices, you use the myriad of Android devices out there.

A locked-down Android is pointless.

homebrewer
Yet most of the world runs Android. Its main value proposition was always wide selection of hardware for however much money you're willing to spend, not its relative openness.

I make relatively decent money by our standards, and I wouldn't even think about dropping $700-1000 on a phone (which isn't even officially sold or supported over here). For the vast majority of people it's their whole income over 2-4 months. I don't know or care how much you make, let's say it's $10k per month. Imagine if you had to pay $20-40k for a phone which is good for maybe 5-8 years.

And most of the world is like that.

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