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benrutter parent
I work for a UK company that manages grid scale batteries - they're awesome!

I wonder how they look in a US landscape that's hostile to renewables. Arbitrage works because solar and wind and very cheap and very indeterminate. The more gas, coal and biofuel (all much more expensive but more flexible) in the grid, the less opportunity for arbitrage.


AnotherGoodName
Yeah in South Australia where it’s over 70% renewables the batteries have been reported to have profit of $46million in a year on a $90million capital cost project.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Power_Reserve

No doubt the profits will come down (as long as the free market can do its thing) but for now it’s a crazy market. There’s a reason graphs of battery installations are a hockey stick right now.

I will call out one thing for European readers. You’re suspiciously absent on lists of battery build outs. You guys don’t have lots or lobbying from legacy power providers wanting to maintain the ridiculously high peak prices by any chance?

As in everywhere in the world except europe has a hockey stick of battery build out growth happening right now. (Not a criticism just an Australian confused at why europe as a whole has fewer battaries than australia).

sveme
Cannot find a graph of battery capacity growth for Germany right away, but anecdotally (stories in the news and number of startups I‘m aware of), that market is super hot right now.

Edit: according to [1], numbers predict a coming tsunami of battery installations for Germany

[1] https://www.pv-magazine.de/2025/01/13/uebertragungsnetzbetre...

adrianN
Battery capacity in Germany is growing exponentially, but most batteries being installed right now are home systems that don't help much to stabilize the grid.
rcxdude
If consumers can get up-to-the-minute pricing, they can. It's not uncommon to charge at night and discharge during the day if you're on such a system and it saves you money.
pjc50
Planning rules are just really onerous and inefficient. I've seen a number of reports of battery facilities denied planning permission in Scotland over concerns like "noise" and (slightly more reasonable) fire service access roads.
Paradigma11
Do batteries really make sense if you look at total system cost?

You still need peaker plants to power the country if there are longer Dunkelflauten. I am skeptical that the total cost for m hours additional power need:

n hours battery power + (m - n) hours of peaker plants is going to be cheaper than m hours peaker plant power.

Less renewables in the mix and useless politicians mean they aren’t as needed, or perceived as needed. Spain could use some ASAP, no idea why they haven’t built them.
protocolture
IIRC Musk was trying to get AEMO to reduce the time increment for trading power so they can do even higher frequency trading.
danielscrubs
Why do you think we go to Australia for sun?

And our wind turbines seems to have crazy maintenance costs…

Don’t give our politicians more ideas, let the market just solve this please. They are already taxing energy to death because of ”fairness”.

sofixa
> I will call out one thing for European readers. You’re suspiciously absent on lists of battery build outs. You guys don’t have lots or lobbying from legacy power providers wanting to maintain the ridiculously high peak prices by any chance?

The European power grid has multiple interconnections between the various countries, and some of those counties already have their grid scale storage (mostly pumped hydro). So it's much less needed.

So why would the countries heavy on renewables in their mix invest a lot in batteries? For instance the UK can rely on French nuclear and Norwegian hydro as a grid scale alternative source. While sometimes there are continent wide issues (we've had twice a month of low winds + overcast which impacted negatively wind and solar), the grid is sufficiently diverse and dispersed that it works pretty well.

As the recent outage in Iberia showed, it's slightly more complicated than that and batteries could still have a part to play to smooth demand ups and downs. And there are still a bunch of battery projects, even in France that doesn't have that much renewables in its energy mix, being heavy on nuclear.

tonyedgecombe
>For instance the UK can rely on French nuclear and Norwegian hydro as a grid scale alternative source.

The plan in the UK is to build gas peaker plants to bridge the gaps where there is no wind nor sun. They are going to be contracted to work for no more than two weeks a year.

petesergeant
> I will call out one thing for European readers. You’re suspiciously absent on lists of battery build outs

If I had to pull reasons out of my ass for this, I'd suggest South Australia and Texas both have a great deal of land with shitty agricultural output (as compared to Europe) and a lot more sunlight. I suspect building batteries is obviously very profitable today in Australia and Texas today, and companies will target Europe when the tech is a bit cheaper and the most profitable markets have been saturated.

I'd love to know if the decision to burn other economies wood pellets in Drax could be ended, and if Batteries can do the job!
benrutter OP
Yeah me too! Drax seem to share not just the name, but the morals of a certain Bond villain.

Probably not yet though, the UK government seems fairly keen for Biofuel in their net zero policy.

Banning Drax from using woodpellets from important nature (ancient forests, rainforests etc) is probably a route that'll be more likely to havesuccess.

dismalaf
Is there anywhere that's truly hostile to renewables? I live in Alberta, the oil producing region of Canada with a reputation for hating renewables, and we have the most solar and wind power in the country. We just have unfortunately topography that doesn't allow hydro and the powers that be never gave us a nuclear plant so we also use natural gas and a few legacy coal plants...

No one here is against solar panels on their home and few are against wind farms, there's just also the realisation that for many applications, oil will remain for the time being. Aircraft, boats, tractors, and cars in many regions of the world are simply unsuitable for electric power with the current state of electric storage (batteries are heavy relative to energy stored).

benrutter OP
By "hostile" I mean a market set up such that it's not possible for renewables to meaningfully participate, rather than that people are actively anti-renewables and campaigning against them etc.

I think the US is moving this way, by removing grants for green energy, continuing grants for oil, placing targetted tariffs on solar panel manufacturing countries, and blocking planning permission for wind.

dismalaf
> continuing grants for oil

Oil isn't used for grid energy generation in most parts of the world... We shut down our last diesel plant many years ago. It's way too expensive, relatively speaking. Like, here we're using renewables to power oil extraction lol. For the most part, renewables don't compete with oil since renewables power the grid and oil doesn't. Electric vehicles can reduce oil demand somewhat, but there will still be massive demand for oil for shipping, air travel, construction vehicles and farming vehicles, for the forseeable future.

benrutter OP
Yup you're right! I should have said gas.

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