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roywiggins parent
> We’re not just experiencing time—we’re creating temporal experience through the very act of being conscious, quantum beings embedded in reality’s information processing systems.

sure, but in exactly the same way rocks are embedded in reality's information-processing systems are creating temporal experiences (erosion, melting, etc)


koakuma-chan
How does that make any sense at all? "temporal experience"? "quantum beings"? "reality’s information processing systems"?
TMEHpodcast
Caveat, this is a blog post for a science comedy podcast.

The actual science is much simpler than that comedic explanation: recent experiments suggest time emerges from quantum entanglement between particles/systems. When quantum systems interact and become correlated, observers inside those systems experience what we call "time." External observers see the whole system as static and timeless.

But that's about measurement and observation in physics experiments - not about consciousness being special or rocks having "experiences" or the universe being some kind of cosmic computer.

pharrington
While I think I now understand what you're going for, remember that the overwhelming amount of people who will now read this don't have the scientific knowledge to understand your blog's sarcastic tone. I know I didn't have a clue that your post was a deliberate joke until reading your comments here!
koakuma-chan
I understand the post is supposed to be funny, but is the core premise that time emerges from quantum entanglement true?
TMEHpodcast
The Page-Wootters mechanism (proposed in 1983, experimentally validated by Moreva et al. in 2013-2015) does show that time can emerge from quantum entanglement between subsystems. In their experiments, time exists for observers inside entangled quantum systems but not for external observers viewing the whole system.
koakuma-chan
So, from what I understood, they had a quantum system of two entangled photons, where one photon acted as a "clock", and the other photon acted as a "system". The quantum system had all possible states "encoded" in it and thus it was "frozen" (it didn't need to change because it already represented all possible states, makes sense). Measuring the clock photon would yield the value of time for the system photon, and changing the "measurement angle" (whatever that is) would yield value of different time (kind of like a cursor over values of `t`?).

It seems like it was just deliberately designed that way, and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with our time. Correct me if I'm wrong.

TMEHpodcast
Great catch. You're absolutely right, that phrasing was misleading in a way that accidentally privileges consciousness over other physical processes.
komali2
Consciousness being a purely physical process comparable to rocks eroding from water or whatever is an unproven and still debated presumption.

Note that taking the opposite point doesn't require arguing from religion, either.

koakuma-chan
> Note that taking the opposite point doesn't require arguing from religion, either.

And what would be a non-religious opposite point? The human brain seems to be pretty physical, unless each has some magic attached to it that enables consciousness?

somenameforme
While this is a not directly an answer, I would emphasize that a lot of science still relies on what is essentially magic in areas that are not understood.

For instance the Big Bang Hypothesis largely came from observing that everything is moving away from everything else. So it's a very intuitive, even simple, hypothesis when you consider well what would happen if you just kept playing everything in reverse? The problem it turns out as we learned more is that a big bang, as we understood it, would not actually create what we see. For instance one problem, among many, is the Horizon Problem. [1]

Areas of the universe that should not be causally connected (light/causality itself, traveling obviously at the speed of light, would not have had time to go from one region to the other if it started at the birth of the universe) seem to be causally connected, in that they're effectively homogeneous. The currently standard explanation for this is cosmic inflation. [2]

Cosmic inflation suggests that for a brief moment in time, the universe's acceleration went into ultra over-drive expanding outward at many times the speed of light, only to suddenly slow down, and then resume accelerating again. This theory is 100% ad hoc. There is no rationale, logic, or remotely supported physical explanation - it's as good as magic for now. The only reason it became the standard is because it plugged a bunch of holes in the Big Bang Theory.

So too with consciousness, it's only in insisting in an answer that somebody is left waxing between the extremes of a basic emergent physical property with completely hamstrung ad hoc hypotheses to support it, or a God ordained proof to each person of their inner spirit. Its natural to seek answers to everything, but the reality is that we don't have those answers, and in some cases those answers may ultimately never be available. And while this may vary between people, I would much prefer to simply accept my own ignorance than believe in answers that have no more grounding than that opposite extreme which they seek to challenge.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizon_problem

[2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_inflation

komali2
One could argue for "emergent" dualism without arguing for an immortal soul, for example - the physical complexity collapses on death, so too does the emergent consciousness with it.

Property Dualism is probably the most palatable to materialists, especially non-reductive physicalism. Basically, the idea that mental properties are irreducible to physical ones 1:1, but may still map to physical reality. Or that all mental states may map to physical states, without mental states themselves being physical (the things itself not really "existing" outside of the qualitative experience of the conscious entity).

I know that to many materialists that just means that the physical state (of the brain or GPU vram) is the consciousness, but dualism is imo sort of like saying one thing can't be two things at the same time, at least when it comes to consciousness - the vram state is real and correlates to a conscious state, but the conscious state still exists non-physically.

I also understand that many of us don't want to think that consciousness is "something special" or have aversions to anthropocentric theories, but I believe we shouldn't completely write off the possibility that something really is special about consciousness until we solve it, or at least get anywhere close to solving it, which we evidently haven't done at all because we're not even theoretically sure of a good path to make an artificial version of consciousness. It's not like we lack the compute and are waiting for technology improvements, we just don't know how to do it.

koakuma-chan
So what you are saying is that consciousness is a property that emerges from a complex neural network that our brain is, and that makes sense. And indeed, in that case, consciousness would not be a physical thing since properties are not physical objects. But that would also mean that consciousness cannot invoke any quantum mechanics, which supports the original point that creating temporal experiences does not require a conscious being.

> we just don't know how to do it

As far as I know, there is no proof that consciousness exists, aside from the fact that everyone personally perceives it. In other words, one has no proof that another is conscious.

Claude effectively claims to be conscious, why should we not believe him?

komali2
> So what you are saying is that consciousness is a property that emerges from a complex neural network that our brain is

Sort of, minus the word "is" in "consciousness is..." since nobody, as you point out, can say what consciousness "is." Without some qualifier. "I hypothesize that..."

> But that would also mean that consciousness cannot invoke any quantum mechanics

Well, consciousness isn't known to be physical, yet does influence the physical world (probably), which is a major criticism of dualism from a materialist perspective - clearly, if it's influencing the material world, it's material! But, we don't know, so, no, it doesn't necessarily mean that consciousness can't invoke quantum mechanics if it's not physical.

> Claude effectively claims to be conscious, why should we not believe him?

I agree generally that we don't know enough about consciousness to "prove" it exists, but I disagree insomuch as I don't like to engage in cleanroom absolute theoretics about it - e.g., yeah I can't prove what consciousness is, but I accept that you're probably conscious, and that my friends I know in real life absolutely are, and Claude isn't because it's basically a Chinese Room. I don't have rigid theorics around this but I don't really believe anyone does, so I guess I'm just vibing about it for now.

dogecoinbase
My favorite read on the subject: https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=2756
roywiggins OP
If consciousness is immaterial it's probably not also quantum, so it's neither here nor there really.

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