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reconnecting parent
I tried to install Signal once. First, it checks and matches your phone number. Strange, but acceptable. Then, it shows a Google Captcha [0], which sends my data to Google. I checked Signal's Privacy Policy and there are no details data sharing [1].

Signal might be good at message encryption, but let's not forget that it handles user privacy unacceptably poorly.

[0] https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Desktop/issues/6002

[1] https://signal.org/legal/


hereme888
Signal is famous for their privacy as well as encryption. Moreover, the comparison is against WhatsApp, which requires you share all your contacts with facebook, and likely cooperates with governments to gain backdoor access.
reconnecting OP
Perhaps Signal is famous for its encryption, but what is related to handling information about yourself is handled below any expectations, and you can check this yourself by reading the following document.

https://signal.org/legal/

redrblackr
Clarify what you see there that makes it below any expectations?
reconnecting OP
1. There is no list of service providers with whom they share personal user data.

2. The privacy terms themselves were updated 7 years ago, which is impossible for any company operating on the internet.

It's just impossible to claim to be famous for privacy and occasionally forget to update how you handle privacy for 7 years.

1. I’ll give you one guess why that is.

2. It is possible, and you better believe it. They haven’t updated it, because there is no need for it.

Signal is simply not interested in your messages. It’s also not interested in your metadata, because it’s not an ad platform or a SIGINT front masquerading as a free messaging service.

If all this sounds hard to believe, you should donate.

(I’m not affiliated)

reconnecting OP
This threat is not about messages.
ethersteeds
Signal started out as an Alternative Android SMS app that opportunistically upgraded text messages to use encryption when both parties had Signal. It exclusively used sms for transport, so phone numbers were baked deeply into it in a way similar to Twitter's 140 character limit.

It's true that having to disclose your phone number to the service and especially to other users is now a significant drawback compared to internet-first services like WhatsApp that use entirely separate identifiers. Many people have raised this objection, and to their credit they've at last rearchitected to allow exchanging messages using user names and without your phone number being disclosed to the other party.

They still have the phone number at the core of account registration, I suspect for similar reasons to the use of a (one-time sign up) captcha: because they raise the cost to create spam accounts. I'd understand if that's not acceptable to you, but I don't think "unacceptably poor" is a reasonable assessment of their handling of user privacy.

Another example of their approach to privacy: they went to great lengths to design their Giphy search to avoid revealing your search terms to them or your IP address to Giphy: https://signal.org/blog/giphy-experiment/

reconnecting OP
When a company, through an application or website, communicates any of your personal data to a third-party provider, this should be mentioned in their privacy terms.

In the case of GIPHY that you mentioned, they are sending IP addresses, which is considered PII (according to GDPR), and this should be outlined in the terms and agreed to by the user prior to sending the data.

Signal's privacy terms were last updated in 2018. We are in 2025 now. It is unimaginable for any operational organization not to update their terms for 7 years.

All together, this is what I call "unacceptably poor" in terms of handling users' privacy.

yusina
> Signal's privacy terms were last updated in 2018. We are in 2025 now. It is unimaginable for any operational organization not to update their terms for 7 years.

As a privacy-concious user, I always get suspicious abouy privacy policy changes. They always become more loose instead of doing anything to my advantage. Typically because company has found a new way to use my data to make money and their lawyers realized that this requires relaxing the privacy policy. It's a good thing Signal is not playing that game.

yusina
Um, Whatsapp does that too?! Maybe there is a way to use it without a phone number, but the most common use is to have a phone number on some sign / store front with a Whatsapp symbol next to it. In many countries that's the default way to do business. Scolding Signal to use phone numbers is just weird in comparison.
ethersteeds
Ah, that's my error, I haven't used WhatsApp personally.
gausswho
Agreed. It's a weird open secret that your phone number is your UUID across all the tech giants. That Signal follows the flock here instead of an email/pass signup is never gonna win me over.
pcthrowaway
There's a practical reason for that; if they don't collect and store any other user information, they have no way to determine if someone trying to sign up is a bot or someone else trying to abuse the service.

I get far less spam messages on Signal than on telegram and discord, for example. There's a cost associated with setting up additional Signal accounts at the very least.

reconnecting OP
Strongly disagree. As a creator of tirreno platform [1] I can say that behavioural patterns are more helpful in fraud prevention (including spam) than phone verification, a specially taking into account that phone numbers could be bought in bulk online.

[1] https://github.com/tirrenotechnologies/tirreno

fortzi
This is incredibly nitpicky compared to the low standard that Whatsapp is held to
diffeomorphism
> I checked Signal's Privacy Policy and there are no details data sharing

Okay, so they are not sharing data and your whole premise was wrong. That happens. But now how do you change your mind?

reconnecting OP
On the contrary, they are sharing the data and not explaining this matter.
anon7000
“Unacceptably poorly” describes what Facebook & Google do with your data, which is to (essentially) sell your personal information to advertisers.

Google captcha sends your data to Google? Come on. Not even remotely in the same ballpark.

CactusRocket
It's not in the same ballpark, but this entire topic is about "An Ethical Replacement for WhatsApp". Should we then accept potential privacy issues with another service, if they are somewhat of an improvement overall? Or should we rather strive to find an alternative which also addresses or avoids those potential privacy issues.

I've been really hesitant to view Signal as a privacy friendly alternative to WhatsApp, because they still don't offer any way to make an account without a phone number, while a phone number is definitely not required to run a chat service.

Also the fact that servers are run by just one organization is very troubling to me. It's just not the right direction.

yusina
Perfect is the main enemy of good. I rather use Signal to escape the big tech clown show than wait for another decade for the perfect tech to come along, meanwhile either not communicating with anybody or using the exact services I really want to avoid.

I'm still waiting for the "other issues" to be explained that Signal supposedly has. I'm ok with my contacts knowing my phone number, and I opened the Signal account ages ago. Anything else to be concerned about?

CactusRocket
I feel like "perfect is the enemy of good" only works when you (still) have to put considerable effort to make it better, e.g. when building software.

However currently there are already better alternatives than Signal, so in my personal opinion I feel like that saying does not apply.

It's very fine if you (and most people) are OK with sharing some personal information with a United States organization. That does not mean that everybody is fine with that, or that it's a very good solution to a chat service problem. I'm glad that Signal is a good match for your needs. But there are those of us who would rather see a decentralized service with which no personal information has to be shared.

In these kinds of discussions, I often find it a little strange when others decide that a certain solution or product must be good for everyone only because they are fine with it themselves.

yusina
If you read it again then you will notice that I didn't claim anything about everyone, only about myself. No strawmen please.

But I was asking for other issues, and you have not actually provided any?

xtiansimon
> “Perfect is the main enemy of good”

Interesting to see this debate evolve.

Seems that phrase “perfect is the enemy of the good” is a relativistic argument. But the title’s frame is “ethics”, which one definition describes as “what is good in and of itself”. In that frame, perfection is the point, no? Though, I imagine you argue in this framework by elevating some aspects to that high standard, and work to convince other aspects are secondary. Otherwise, result is a preference argument where the trade offs you made are silent or obscured behind the practicality of your choices.

reconnecting OP
Actually not, because Facebook and Google at least explain what happens with your personal data. Again, Signal doesn't do even this.

[1] https://signal.org/legal/

omnimus
First thing i saw when i clicked the link.

“Privacy of user data. Signal does not sell, rent or monetize your personal data or content in any way – ever.

Please read our Privacy Policy to understand how we safeguard the information you provide when using our Services.”

I clicked Privacy Policy and there is whole page explaining whats happening with your data.

Your comments seem a bit biased?

reconnecting OP
Also, this is untrue, as they monetize personal data by sharing it with ad networks.

You can visit their donation page [1] that contains ad pixels from LinkedIn, Google Tag Manager and Reddit. Again, no details in the privacy terms [2] about sharing visitor data to those companies.

[1] https://signal.org/donate/

[2] https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/articles/360032293251-Do...

omnimus
That's fair critique. Their website uses third parties to work and some of the services they shouldn't use. Others they probably have to use.

But you are implying that this makes the app itself broken. I don't think this is proof that the app itself is not respecting privacy like their legal documents say.

I won't fight for them. I've never even been on their website. But this is classic situation where someone else is in charge of website and marketing. I wouldn't be surprised if slapping google analytics on a website was standard for every other "privacy focused" marketing product.

reconnecting OP
When someone takes clients' private information and shares it with other businesses without providing transparency over this fact, it is actually a breach of privacy. In terms of Signal, these breaches are both about their application and about their website, illustrating a complex issue with privacy in their business organization.

I'm not saying that the app is broken, I said that it handles user privacy unacceptably poorly.

reconnecting OP
The primary purpose of a Privacy Policy is to explain how and with whom a company shares PII with service providers. This is something that is completely missing from this document for the last 7 years, according to the date of the last update at the bottom.
pcthrowaway
and what if they aren't sharing any personal data with service providers? Should they start so that you can feel their policy statement is more honest?
reconnecting OP
This is incorrect. Look at the code, there are many services integrations including PayPal, captchas etc. All this must be in privacy statement, as even IP is considered as PII according to GDPR.
Plausible they're anonymously proxying the captcha to google?
reconnecting OP
No, there is (or was) just Google Captcha. Here is issue on Github about it.

https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Desktop/issues/6002

AlecSchueler
It's possible but if there's no transparency you can also assume the worst
balanc
Is that something that can be done?
reconnecting OP
Unless I'm mistaken, they use services provided by third parties, perhaps PayPal as indicated in the source code. But guess what - there's no mention of PayPal in privacy either.
msgodel
>but acceptable.

There is no acceptable reason for an online service to demand your phone number IMO. There are a lot of other issues with signal though.

yusina
For example?
msgodel
The insistence that you use their automatically updated smartphone client makes the E2EE practically a no-op.
crtasm
It's your choice to keep automatic app updates turned on. I turned it off.
msgodel
In my experience that choice is available but choosing to leave it off means choosing not to use the service so it may as well not exist.

Unless they allow you to bring your own client E2EE is a no-op.

jzackpete
perfect is the enemy of good, with WhatsApp being neither (at least wrt privacy)

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