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You can default to a hardened, secure setup but provide an option to override to those who want to. I don't think anyone is against secure defaults, but many people have a problem with designs that say you must not even have an option to override.

burnt-resistor
It creates a Hobson's choice of no tinkering and less malware, or tinkering and greater risks from malware. There should be a "maintenance mode", but the onus of responsibility for breakage should be on the user for system update compatibility without the user being held hostage. This is a false choice and ostensible customizability. If the manufacturer wants to add an "OS warranty void sticker" flag because things maybe broken from tweaking, that's cool, but leaving the user less secure as punishment is wrong.
sprinkly-dust
It is my experience that this is what Google does with their Pixel phones. It is really quite simple to unlock the bootloader and do whatever you want on a Google Pixel you own (i.e unlocked, no carrier). They even give you this really handy Android flash tool which uses WebUSB to fully restore your device when you mess up. Heck, custom ROMs like GrapheneOS and CalyxOS are even able to sign their own images and allow you to lock the bootloader with a non Google OS.

However, all this comes with the caveat that SafetyNet will flay you alive. The cat and mouse game with Magisk and other methods to maintain root undetected is moot when I've used apps these days that make a fuss when you have developer settings enabled. To be honest, that seems acceptable to me, I can do what I want with my device, software vendors like banks and the like have a say in how I choose to access their more convenient services. I can play nice with them if I want, even using a second phone perhaps, but I have a choice.

encom
>banks and the like have a say in how I choose to access their more convenient services

I disagree. I don't understand how it's fine that I can access my banking services with my Gentoo machine, with everything compiled from source by myself, but it's somehow a problem when I'm not using either Apple or Google certified OS on my phone.

I'm sure they want to prevent the first scenario, like various streaming cartels already do, but I hope something like EU throws a fit if they do.

keyringlight
What kind of actions can gentoo do with your financial accounts, and what levels of user authentication does it use to do it? My phone can effectively act as a bank card with contactless payment or I can transfer up to a daily allowance (that would be painful to me if it was misused) of thousands with biometric auth. Similar to the OS if you're doing that with any browser with a web login you could potentially compile it to behave how you like or lie about what it's doing

Because it's a bank there's going to be insurance behind the scenes to cover them if something goes wrong, and I assume part of that is ticking off enough points to be confident a transaction is secure or different payment limits on confidence levels.

burnt-resistor
Nice. I wish Pixels (and recent iPhones Pros) were more repairable. Pixels are the least repairable phone around, so don't drop it at least not without a rugged case. ;)
JumpCrisscross
> There should be a "maintenance mode", but the onus of responsibility for breakage should be on the user for system update compatibility without the user being held hostage

Isn’t this just a second device? How can you hold a manufacturer liable if the user was given unsupervised time as root?

hilbert42
"How can you hold a manufacturer liable if the user was given unsupervised time as root?"

PCs had root access by default, so why wasn't it a significant problem for them? Banking is possible on a PC without a banking app.

As Noam Chomsky has said, as in politics, manufacturers and OS vendors such as Google and Microsoft have been deliberately "manufacturing concent" — a widespread belief in the population of users that benefits them to the disadvantage of many of said users.

burnt-resistor
Manufactured consent requires media complicity to achieve acceptance of Hobson's choice Accept or Don't Use EULAs and corporate, technofeudal non-ownership and the "shame" of specialized knowledge, tinkering, and modifying things. Nerds were frowned upon until electronics and software people became billionaires in the 80's, and technical vocations are still frowned upon in socially most of America.

PS: While he maybe in effectively hospice now, at least he outlived Kissinger.

hilbert42
"Manufactured consent requires media complicity to achieve acceptance of Hobson's choice Accept or Don't"

Right, I've never fully understood why the media was (and still is) so complicit. There's a long history of the media, especially the tech media, mags etc. ass-licking the likes of Microsoft, Google et al. It's been horrible sight to watch over the decades. Perhaps it's because of kickbacks, fear of exclusion from events, press releases, or handouts—free software etc., or that many had/have shares in such entities—or the belief that those who run such entities are only one step removed from the gods—hero worshiping.

We users would now be in a damn side better prosition if the media had done its job professionally.

"technical vocations are still frowned upon in socially most of America."

Right again, and America is not the only place, such thought is endemic across the anglosphere.

JumpCrisscross
> PCs had root access by default, so why wasn't it a significant problem for them?

They weren't networked. They were notoriously buggy. And most importantly, they weren't warrantied [1].

Root should always be an option. But once you root, it's fair for the warranty to be voided.

> OS vendors such as Google and Microsoft have been deliberately "manufacturing concent"

Nitpick, the propaganda model [2] attempts to describe traditional mass media. Two of its five pillars (ownership and sourcing) fall apart in a world with smartphones and social media.

[1] https://www.studocu.com/ph/document/university-of-rizal-syst...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_model#Criticism

burnt-resistor
My PCs were homebuilt and networked in 1994. All warranties void, except the hardware. Windows 3.1 and Netscape over 28.8 sucked, but it worked.
hilbert42
Uh? My PCs and corporate PCs I've been responsible for are networked including the internet (they always have been). Moreover, they were warranted with no conditions about what software was run on them.

Where on earth did you get that notion from? Just because some vendor [your links] has conned the unfortunate client into an unacceptable contract doesn't mean it's commonplace or ever was.

bongodongobob
Yeah, that's rooting your phone. It should be a little difficult. You can do it. And it's good that most people don't.
gyello
The problem is not that rooting is difficult, it's that in most cases now it permanently renders parts of the phone inoperable or makes it impossible to use contactless payments or any banking apps or content streaming apps etc.

These additional restrictions are not there for security despite what we are told.

WarOnPrivacy
> it's that in most cases now it permanently renders parts of the phone inoperable or makes it impossible to use contactless payments or any banking apps or content streaming apps etc.

I've had to cloak the rooted state from an app or two or they'd choose to withhold functionality. That was a couple of phones ago. I've not had trouble with banking, payments, etc since.

miki123211
They're for the bank's (and other customers') security, not yours.

I think they're supposed to prevent people from reverse-engineering banking app APIs and writing bots that perform millions of requests per second, trying to brute force their way into peoples' accounts.

As an extra protection, SafetyNet also makes it harder to distribute apps that repackage your genuine banking app, but with an extra trojan added.

potamic OP
Every bank of repute also has a web portal for internet banking. If it were about security, leaving this open while closing the mobile route doesn't make sense. The web is also vulnerable to scammers hosting trojan websites but somehow that doesn't seem to be a big problem.

If a bank (or any entity for that matter) needs to control the client in order to make their systems secure, then it's bad security. The system must be secure despite the client.

miki123211
This depends on the bank and the country, but web portals usually have some kind of 2FA on them. This means hacking into somebody's web portal account isn't enough, you still need to hack that mobile device first.

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