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Mountain_Skies parent
Much of the world is against LBGTQ+ rights. If an immigrant has social media posts expressing open hatred and even calls for violence against people with sexual orientations not approved of in their home culture, will you still have an open mind about welcoming them in the US with open arms?

This isn't theoretical. Both China and India, the two countries that supply the most students to the US, prohibit marriage equality. Both have extensive discrimination throughout their societies, both at the government and cultural levels.


UncleMeat
The only students who've ever called me a homophobic slur were born in the US.
eddythompson80
Man, I'm sorry to tell you. But you must not have been around the world much.
JumpCrisscross
> you must not have been around the world much

Gay man here. Multi-ethnic, world travelled.

American evangelicals are up there with the mullahs in opposing both free society and everything Christ preached.

throwaway290
Your comparison of Muslims and American evangelicals has self selecting bias. There are places where non straight orientation is punishable by law or extrajudicially. Maybe they call you homophobic slurs but you might not walk to tell the tale. None of those places are Catholic as far as I know. One or two of them bordering Israel. In Russia if it's not done by Muslim extremists than by fascists/activists or by government classifying LGBT as extremism. (This is not anti Russian propaganda, it's in the laws. I lived in Russia for most of my life and I met let me count... zero gay people that I know of. But I know some forever unmarried people, I wonder what's going on;)
JumpCrisscross
> There are places where non straight orientation is punishable by law or extrajudicially

I didn’t mean to suggest the comparison was exhaustive. Just that both those groups, if they had control of a state, would do exactly this. (And when they have had such control, they have. See American evangelical effects on liberty in their African missions.)

UncleMeat
There are homophobic people all over the world, but the topic of discussion is people coming to the US on student visas.
bigbacaloa (dead)
dullcrisp
I’m sure we can still deport them to El Salvador.
kennywinker
Until 2015 gay marriage was illegal in many states. Plenty here hold pretty nasty anti lgbtq beliefs. This is a bad argument for screening visa applicants for beliefs, and not what this new rule will be used for. It will be used to deny anyone critical of israeli genocide, people who think we shouldn’t destroy the planet’s climate, and people who think women should control their own bodies.
andsoitis
> This is a bad argument for screening visa applicants for beliefs, and not what this new rule will be used for.

And do you think permanent residency or citizen applicants should be screened for their beliefs?

dlahoda
it was for visa while ago

https://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2012/dec/07/einstein...

even for jewish nobel laureats in physics

why it should be different for more serious things like residence or citizenship?

sibhezt (dead)
sundaeofshock
Yes. I wouldn’t be happy they hold those views, but I don’t support basing a person’s entry into the US on how the feel about Donald Trump.

Of course, your scenario is a big ol’ straw person, as those beliefs are not what they are screening for.

It might not be what the US is screening for, but if you're forced to make your account public, not just to the US, then your own government would also know.
thfuran
Yes, that's part of why it's a bad idea.
mahirsaid
They will most likely force FAANG to disclose this anyway. Some of which already have contracts with that country that is at war.
bastardoperator
This isn't a screening process, it's a deterrent.
bigyabai
Many Americans have never seriously looked at a map before. Should they be categorically denied entry to foreign countries for their stereotypical ignorance?

Here in America, you can't put someone on trial for a crime they haven't committed. Even if you think they're from a suspicious country. That's called racial profiling, and it's forbidden by civil rights laws for a reason; nobody should have to tolerate the indignation of their peer's stupidity.

> you can't put someone on trial for a crime they haven't committed.

What do you think happened in a trial where a not guilty verdict is reached?

Freedom2
> Here in America, you can't put someone on trial for a crime they haven't committed

Actually in the US you can - it's why there's stories of innocent men and women being released from jail after other evidence proves their innocence (eg: DNA).

bigyabai
That's exactly why they're being released, though. If you manufacture a bogus case or plant evidence against someone, that's not probable cause. You're not acting within the acceptable norms of a just society, and the rectification of these cases is proof. Oftentimes the falsely persecuted will countersue, especially if they get an early injunction.
These people spend years in prison before "correcting" that small mistake
recursive
If we know someone has committed the crime before the trial, we could really streamline the judicial process.
andsoitis
> > Should they be categorically denied entry to foreign countries for their stereotypical ignorance?

You missed this bit that parent said:

"If an immigrant has social media posts expressing open hatred and even calls for violence against people with sexual orientations not approved of in their home culture, will you still have an open mind about welcoming them in the US with open arms?"

voidUpdate
I mean, given the current political climate, I think someone with posts like that would be welcomed easily, and people who are pro LGBT, especially pro-trans, would be denied outright
digianarchist
Right. That’s what these new powers will be used for. To defend LGBT folks in the United States. /s
BLKNSLVR
Well, to me, it sounds as if the ban on LGBT folks joining the armed forces is a kind of protection of LGBT folks, especially given the world seems to be moving towards an inevitable near-future in which US forces will be deployed to Canada, Greenland, Panama, Iran, Russia (to protect it from invasion by Ukraine and/or Europe), Gaza (to protect the construction of Trump's Oasis on the Mediterranean), Taiwan.

Non-LGBT front line.

derektank
Obviously not by this administration, but if we are creating new powers, the question of the principle is relevant and its potential use by a Democratic administration is also relevant.

I, personally, don't see a problem with creating an ideological test for certain kinds of visa holders or permanent residents. As Karl Popper noted in outlining the paradox of tolerance, unlimited tolerance can lead to the destruction of tolerance itself. I think it's worth exploring ways for the government to prevent enemies of liberalism from entering the country, even if we already face illiberalism at home.

That being said, I think this specific proposal threatens personal privacy far too much to be justified.

scarecrowbob
I dunno, I think it's not super great that I might not be able to pass an ideological test to get into my own damn country. Why do they get to say that what I believe isn't "American".

Like, I'm "Texas from Texas"- my anglo ancestors go back before the 1836 revolution.

But I'm not a racist so I have often been told that I'm "not really from Texas".

It's the same vibe here. I'm way more worried about the fact that they wouldn't let me back into the country if I had to pass an ideological litmus test than I am worried that someone with illiberal beliefs is going to join the other theocrats in Texas.

riffraff
Are you really advocating for 1984's thoughtpolice?

If someone has "bad" ideas and they keep them to themselves by having private social media accounts, it's crazy to think it's a risk to society.

Countries already have rules to deal with hate speech, inciting riots, etc.

TheOtherHobbes
To add some nuance to Popper's argument, the implication is that intolerance means violence against others.

People can believe whatever they like as long as they don't become a movement dedicated to murdering those they don't like.

Historically, observably, and objectively, the US right has much more of a history with political murder than the left does.

This isn't some ideological purity test about "liberalism". This is about maintaining a culture that supports a broad spectrum of views in a peaceful way.

When the state itself crosses that line the state itself becomes oppressive, and would-be residents should be asking themselves whether that's the kind of state they want to live in, or visit.

frollogaston
To answer your question, yes those people should be welcome, yes I'm ok with people coming from China and India.

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