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leptons parent
The Apple M-series laptops get a performance boost by putting the RAM inside the CPU, which makes it completely impossible to upgrade RAM. That is the antithesis of what Framework is doing. Apple are the kings of disposable hardware that costs way more than the competition for no good reason. You want 32GB? You're going to pay a lot for it. Oh, now you need 64GB? Too bad, throw out that old laptop and get a new one.
kcb
RAM is on the package not inside the CPU. Maybe possibly some performance boost from that but the benefit is mainly improved packaging.
leptons OP
The fact is that the CPU and the RAM are in the same package. Yes, essentially the RAM is on the CPU for the purpose of this conversation about upgradeability. You cannot upgrade the RAM in any M-series Apple computer, not even desktops.
eddythompson80
There is a lot you can fault Apple for, but we're literally talking about a 4 year old CPU that is still unmatched by their competition. People often argue "how much is Apple ahead of the competition" if at all, right? Guessing you're in the "not at all, it's all PR bullshit" camp, which is fine.

This is the one undisputed example though where we can put a definitive number on it. So far Apple is 4 years ahead of their competition on this very particular metric (High performance, low energy, fanless CPU)

leptons OP
>a 4 year old CPU that is still unmatched by their competition

It isn't all that high performance compared to other laptops, but sure.. fanless and low power it has. I just would rather plug in a laptop to get my workload done in 1/2 of the time it would take on an M1 laptop.

The Dell laptop we got runs at 55W (Intel Core i9-13900HX) and is faster than the M1 Ultra 20-core at 60 Watts, which you can't even get in a laptop format. The benchmarks don't lie. That intel CPU is as fast as the fastest M4 16-core CPU, and the M4 runs at 90W (so far as I can tell from a google search).

>Guessing you're in the "not at all, it's all PR bullshit" camp, which is fine.

I'm guessing you're in the "reality distortion field" camp. Nevermind, I know you are.

criddell
We understand that if you are willing to compromise on the fan and power efficiency, you can get a great machine like your Dell. People with your preferences are well served! The frustration is that there's nothing similar to even an old M1 laptop from other manufacturers. Why not? Apple has shown there's a big market for small, efficient, silent laptops with good displays in the $2500+ range.

Other people in this thread have mentioned a Lenovo Aura as coming pretty close and it does, except for the fan! Is it really that hard to eliminate the fan and get performance / watt numbers like Apple was getting 5 years ago?

leptons OP
In Apple's quest for thinness and quiet they have made lots of undercooled devices that overheat and thermal-throttle and just plain die. That Dell replaced a MBP which replaced another MBP that had to have the motherboard replace 8 times before Apple forced us to sue them in a class action (and we won). If only they had just cooled the thing properly.

>there's a big market for small, efficient, silent laptops with good displays in the $2500+ range.

Yeah, it's called "apple fanboys", people with more money than sense who fetishize slimness and quiet over computing.

The Dell costs less than half the price of a $2500 fanless Apple laptop, so it's really no wonder Apple is forever at ~15% market share - most people prefer to not spend their money on Apple hardware. Price/performance is not what Apple is known for, they are a luxury brand, a status symbol. And that's great if that's what you need, Apple makes a laptop for you.

criddell
Assuming everything you say is correct, there are a lot of people with more money than sense. Why is Apple the only company to chase that market?

Apple’s margins are the envy of the industry. Their stores have revenue per square foot numbers that few other retailers can match. Why isn’t there a Dell store across the street from every Apple store? Why doesn’t HP have a machine that goes toe-to-toe with every SKU that Apple sells?

> Apple makes a laptop for you

And, unfortunately, only Apple is making a laptop with those characteristics. My laptop is a ThinkPad because I need Windows and it’s not a very nice computer to use. There’s lots of Linux and Windows people out there who want Apple-like hardware. Some companies copy the superficial aspects, but none copy the internals.

I guess ultimately what I was trying to get at this whole thread is that Framework could make an M1-level machine, right? They just choose not to.

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Dylan16807
> In Apple's quest for thinness and quiet they have made lots of undercooled devices that overheat and thermal-throttle and just plain die.

That's a good description of their last few Intel models. M1 does okay, even when it's fanless.

> Yeah, it's called "apple fanboys", people with more money than sense who fetishize slimness and quiet over computing.

Computers get more powerful every year. Not everyone needs to get sustained 100% out of their CPU.

So don't be an asshole about wanting other features.

And the whole point of the request is they're not an apple fanboy.

eddythompson80
If you look next to you, you might find Dunning and Kruger
leptons OP
Your low-effort troll should get you banned. If all you do is make an ad hominem attack, then you're the asshole.

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