Preferences

This is surprising. Why are the police monitoring constitutionally protected activity?

Police in my city go to pretty much every protest and take video and photos (with big zoom lens) from the roofs of nearby buildings. It's always surprising to me that more people don't notice.
I am pretty sure this would be a crime in my home country. There are court cases cementing that anything except superficial photography/filming by law enforcement lacks any kind of support in law. There are even laws restricting use of photography in situations when exercising any coercive measures ("tvångsåtgärd").
The USA is pretty behind in personal rights. Americans love to shout about freedom but don't realize how many rights we don't have that other countries do. Especially after 9-11 when we signed away a ton of rights.
I'd say we're not too far away from par for the course, Western nations-wise, when it comes to civil liberties. At least for now. There are still things that you can do in the US (particularly related to speech) that are very different in Europe, for better or worse. Actually here of late it's been worse more than it's been better, but alas.

It's the whole "freedom to fail only applying to the layperson" thing that we're behind on.

EDIT:

Western nations/Common Law countries, I should specify.

Acts in public are not protected. This, however is:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Posting on a publicly accesible website is the legal equivalent of standing on the street corner having a conversation. A police officer doesn't need to search anything because it's out in the open.
A conversation is ephemeral unless someone specifically goes out of their way to record it. That is not true by default for just about anything involving a computer and we all know it. Where's the line between obtuse and lying?
but in this case (to keep with the comparison) the people having the conversation are recording it themselves and posting it publicly.
Yes. But you cannot follow a person around indefinitely.
Maybe as an individual you cannot, but I don't see why a group of people (cops) couldn't.
That's the thing about exigency, it is temporary.
Then the metaphor is broken. So find a new metaphor.
Nah, that’s a malfunction of your reading comprehension.
For the same reason they use ancestry databases to narrow the field of potential serial killers to a few that can be investigated through legally-admissible means.

There is a vast gap between what the cops can do in general and what holds up in court, but to a first approximation: the things they aren't allowed to do because it would taint the case are in general explicitly spelled out, and if it isn't spelled out it's legal to use as a stepping stone to conventional, more-understood-protections police tactics. Thus arresting someone for a general Twitter post is probably off-limits (the incitement-to-riot or sedition laws are narrowly tailored), but taking someone online who says "Hey let's all get together and do a riot" seriously, and allocating police resources to prepare for it as if they're telling the truth about their intentions, is almost certainly legal.

(This is the battleground that the ACLU fights on in this day and age).

They do it more than you'd think. There're a ton of pictures of La Cosa Nostra members walking around in Brooklyn taken by FBI agents. They even made sure to get the good side of Casso and Gotti.

Walking around and talking to each other? Constitutionally protected.

Very possibly those people were named subjects of active investigations for crimes; the protestors are not named (it's a dragnet), not subjects of investigations, and are suspected of no crimes.
> the protestors are not named (it's a dragnet), not subjects of investigations, and are suspected of no crimes.

That could very well be true, though there's also the possibility that there are people there who are subjects of investigations. The article doesn't really say; it just mentions that it's a possible threat to civil liberties. And to be fair, it very well can be, particularly in the hands of the current administration.

When the police watch you walk down the street they are also monitoring constitutionally protected activity.
a police officer observing you briefly with their eyes is quite different than an entire police department outsourcing surveillance of protected activities to a third party which monitors your online activity over time.
How? What expectation of privacy do you have walking down the street, or in your public social media posts?
mostly scale: accumulation of data over time and use of that data (a single brief observation of an anonymous person vs identification and observation of a person over time, with real-time activities reported to law enforcement). same way that it's unacceptable/illegal for a police officer - without probable cause or a warrant - to follow you down the street to your home, then wait outside your home and follow you 24/7, recording all your activities which exist in the public sphere, then putting you on a departmental watchlist where your protected activities are broadcast to all officers in real-time.

you may be ok with that ("i don't have anything to hide", "i trust the police/government", "the free market will prevent abuses [by companies like Dataminr]" are some rebuttals i've heard recently), but it undermines our constitutional rights, setting a dangerous precedent and chilling free speech/association (per the ACLU). additionally, how else is this collected information being used by the police and Dataminr? what are their retention policies? what other kinds of analysis are being done (fta, there seems to be a not-insignificant number of false positives)?

> mostly scale: accumulation of data over time and use of that data

I'm a long-time, hardcore civil libertarian so I share your concerns about potential law enforcement abuse. However, in the instance being cited here, I'm not seeing a clear violation of 4th amendment rights. Posting on openly shared social media is not only public speech, these days it's advertising and promotion. I assume you wouldn't have a problem with law enforcement subscribing to a press release monitoring service that would notify them if someone is sends out media press releases promoting their protest in that agency's jurisdiction. Arguably, not having any situational awareness of open-to-the-public mass gatherings planned in their area might be something they'd even be blamed for if overcrowding turned into a public safety situation at a book signing or something and they were oblivious.

So, while I want to restrict police overreach as much as possible, the challenge is in how we might craft guidelines of what's allowable vs not allowable which are clear and consistent.

I've learned that when people refer to "constitutional rights/protections" outside of a strict legal setting and framework, it's almost always disappointingly predictable and devoid of merit. The gulf between the law as its written and interpreted through the courts, and what people with a casual interest believe it to be, is really impressively vast.

At the end of the day if you want privacy, don't broadcast your activities on open platforms that were DESIGNED to observer and record you.

The expectation is there is a limitation on resources that can be deployed for law enforcement officers viewing things with their eyes. It's virtually unlimited with technology.
Walking down the street is not a constitutionally protected activity not that the police should monitor it without a statutory reason. Driving also isn’t. If you think different you’ll have to cite different. But assembly and expression are constitutionally protected.

But back to my original question, why are the police monitoring constitutionally protected activity?

Walking down a public street absent some public safety or similar imposition is in fact a Constitutionally protected activity. It is not at all like driving.
Freedom of association implies freedom to walk down a public street.
No, it doesn't.
No, that is your opinion and not a cite. In fact, the government can regulate your walking with cross walks and traffic lights.

Again, why are the police in this case monitoring constitutionally protected activity?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

You're just wrong. There's a whole line of cases about this.

Walkers and strollers and wanderers may be going to or coming from a burglary. Loafers or loiterers may be "casing" a place for a holdup. Letting one's wife support him is an intra-family matter, and normally of no concern to the police. Yet it may, of course, be the setting for numerous crimes. The difficulty is that these activities are historically part of the amenities of life as we have known them. They are not mentioned in the Constitution or in the Bill of Rights. These unwritten amenities have been, in part, responsible for giving our people the feeling of independence and self-confidence, the feeling of creativity. These amenities have dignified the right of dissent, and have honored the right to be nonconformists and the right to defy submissiveness. They have encouraged lives of high spirits, rather than hushed, suffocating silence.

You keep repeating "constitutionally protected activity" like it carries more weight the more you repeat. The Intercept article does the same thing.

If we step back and look at what's happening at "pro palestine" protests across the world, much of it is toxic and unwelcome by the wider community. Law enforcement sees the negative energy and responds using passive tracking tools and other measures. They're seeing escalating "decolonizing" associations too, as these groups try to merge with their socialist friends and agendas.

In my country Australia, they've taken the Aboriginal flag and Palestine flag and joined them together, parading them along the street screaming about colonisation. Many contain raised fist graphics and calls for resistance. And you wonder why cops are monitoring?

Barely qualifying as activity worth "protecting" in many cases. In particular, the terror-aligned rhetoric by masked mobs screaming about global intifadas, "resistance by any means necessary" and other stuff unrelated to peace or anything remotely "anti-war". No peace symbols in the crowd but plenty of Hamas flags, is the answer to your question.

Because it involves gatherings of large crowds in public spaces. It is their job to make sure that such gatherings result in no harm of either the protesters nor the local community.

This item has no comments currently.

Keyboard Shortcuts

Story Lists

j
Next story
k
Previous story
Shift+j
Last story
Shift+k
First story
o Enter
Go to story URL
c
Go to comments
u
Go to author

Navigation

Shift+t
Go to top stories
Shift+n
Go to new stories
Shift+b
Go to best stories
Shift+a
Go to Ask HN
Shift+s
Go to Show HN

Miscellaneous

?
Show this modal