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Honestly its really tiring to see people promoting the rote-learning of Kanji.

Not only do most Kanji rote-learning resources not take into account aspects such as compound words, but also its just the wrong way to learn Japanese full stop.

No language learning works well if you are continuously translating it back into your native tongue. You need to learn to think in the language you are learning, that is the only way you are going to gain any sort of fluency. Just knowing that X translates to Y is not going to help you, even if you memorise the whole dictionary.

You might get away with translating back into your native tongue with a Western language, but you won't with Japanese.

With Japanese there's no escaping learning the grammar and other aspects. It's just your choice if your want to do it the hard way (textbook theory) or the harder way (immersion via graded readers, conversations with patient natives, or anything else similar).

All the time and effort people put into rote-learning Japanese Kanji should really be expended learning Japanese in a more holistic way.

Otherwise you might as well just buy one of those books with set-phrases such as "where's the toilet".


For the spoken language I whole heartedly agree, but as far as reading is concerned, immersion is super hard. Most resource won't have furigana and even with the one that do, it's "down one ear and out the other", I don't particularly learn to read Kanjis this way. Once you've got a base of say the 500 most used kanji, and you're able to recognise patterns (components, composition) of kanjis then it's a different story.

I'd add that WaniKani does go into compound words, whilst it teaches ~2000 kanji it teaches ~8000 words of vocabulary (which can be either a single kanji, a compound word, etc.). However it does not teach kana only words such as りんご.

As for my own case, I'm self studiying with a grammar book + the minna no nihong + wanikani + a weekly tutor in immersion, playing Animal Crossing every now and then in Japanese and trying to read Komi san, as well as preparing for a 6 week trip, which will be my third trip to Japan. It's hard to imagine doing anything more – my wife already thinks I'm doing too much.

> However it does not teach kana only words such as りんご.

FYI, while this word is most often written in kana it's also often written in kanji.

Source: I run a website with such stats. See "Alt. forms" here: https://jpdb.io/vocabulary/1555480/リンゴ

This is a very nice website! Thank you to share.

Where do you get your stats? Honestly, I always see it written as りんご (never katakana, nor kanji), but I don't want to be a Japanese language Internet troll. (Yes, there are many: "Oh, but actually...")

> Where do you get your stats? Honestly, I always see it written as りんご (never katakana, nor kanji), but I don't want to be a Japanese language Internet troll. (Yes, there are many: "Oh, but actually...")

All of the stats are calculated by me analyzing texts from my corpus. If you follow the link that I've pasted and click on "Used in" then you can see where exactly this form of the word is used.

リンゴ is used in: https://jpdb.io/vocabulary/1555480/リンゴ/used-in

林檎 is used in: https://jpdb.io/vocabulary/1555480/林檎/used-in

So you can see that the kanji form is used relatively often in novels (which makes sense, as those often use higher level/more flower-y language).

(I also use modern news articles in my corpus and that's also included in the stats, although this isn't shown on the "used in" pages.)

Honestly just saw 苹果 a couple days ago so even that spelling can't be called that rare. It really depends on what you're consuming, if you're just reading daily SoL content I doubt you'd ever see it but I do think 林檎 is pretty common.
I have not seen 苹果 before, where did you see it? It looks Chinese, and Japanese Wikipedia calls it "簡体字中国語表記". I don't think most native speakers can read it!

林檎 for sure is common.

林檎 is common enough that you will see it in supermarket signage (without furigana).
Oh wow. Difficulty lists for books too? With vocab lists! This is awesome!
For furigana, you can try the Google Chrome extension "Japanese IO": https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/japanese-io/dccefj...

You can either select specific text and ask to "decorate" (kanjis with furigana). Or you can click the extension icon (top right in your browser) and it will decorate the entire page. Mouse over kanjis will show furigana. It was a game changer for me.

> really tiring to see people promoting the rote-learning of Kanji

> its just the wrong way to learn Japanese full stop

First, let me say that you may be responding to a strawman. There's few-to-zero people who will recommend memorizing kanji to the exclusion of learning grammar and other aspects.

Realistically, people who promote rote-memorization of kanji are also suggesting to learn grammar, attempt to think in the language (not translate in their head), and suggesting immersing/talking/etc as much as possible too.

So, let me ask you, what do you suggest people do instead of rote-memorization of the readings of kanji? How do you suggest someone become able to read a sentence in japanese, guess the pronunciation of an unfamiliar name, if they have not memorized how to pronounce the relevant kanji?

Do japanese school children not learn kanji by rote memorization themselves?

> Do japanese school children not learn kanji by rote memorization themselves?

They do indeed, but in a context of everyday immersion, so it’s not rote learning to the exclusion of all else.

Who are you responding to? TFA doesn't discuss learning methods at all, let alone "promoting the rote-learning of Kanji".

Is it just the mention of WaniKani? Personally I don't like WK either, but the author barely mentioned it in passing, and says nothing at all about the stuff you're criticizing.

While I agree with your sentiment, I do not believe the author tried to "promote rote-learning" here -- they just presented a nice little analogy between Japanese and programming constructs.
I have often thought that people who advocate anything but rote-learning of English spelling are misguided. I know that phonetics are a popular myth in English.

Rote learning of English spelling is a much more daunting task than rote learning of kanji. To unfairly cherry-pick from the paragraph above, the English word "person" is about 10 strokes; "people" is also 10 strokes. But there is no obvious connection between the two words and the different spellings have to be memorized individually. 人 is two strokes; 人人 is four strokes; 人々 is six? All are easier to memorize, easier to write, and easier to read. Of course, I might have cherry-picked the most extreme comparison. But even that little four letter word "myth" is 9 strokes and must be rote memorized. It is a small word in English. Somebody else can correct my belief that 9 strokes is not short in kanji.

Ok, I'll correct myself. 神話 is a 9? stroke character and a 13? stroke character. So 22 strokes total? It's funny what we convince ourselves to believe when we cherry-pick. "God talk" is a 5 stroke word + an 8 stroke word. "God speek" is 5+10. So even if I go out of my way to justify my belief in Japanese brevity I have to start rethinking. Maybe if I can think of a word like "deity" or something with even more strokes I could eventually avoid having to adopt a new position on which language is easier.

Another observation is the number of times each day a Japanese person whips up their hand as a chalkboard and asks, "This or this?" while air drawing out two different kanji. The fact that the observer can recognize the characters written in air has always seemed instructive to me, though.

> With Japanese there's no escaping learning the grammar

Learned Polish recently. It's the same. But people do try the supposedly easy way of learning it "without studying the grammar".

Spending painful years in classes where we've been taught the grammar extensively I couldn't agree more with those people. Two languages, the same way of teaching and time wasted all the same. So I say, just skimming the grammar book should be enough to get you going. You can always come back to it when you read something and don't get the rules.
Indeed. I sucked at English (as a foreign language) in school. Real progress came from video games / books / later TV shows.

It's perhaps a slower way (unless you go to live for half a year+ in the country and don't use too much the crutch of help available in your languages), but not a harder one (ditto).

Maybe for the very beginning, when you first learn phonetics and alphabet/ideograms, where the "floor" is infamously higher in Japanese for non-~Asians ?

Incomprehensible to me. Learning the grammar of a language is the most fun part, in my opinion! Vocab is hard work, but learning ways to form a sentence? Magical.
Agree, learning vocabulary or characters is the most boring part of any language.
It can work for some people? You aren’t so much not learning grammar as you are inferring the grammar via practice instead of up front studying the rules. Like the difference between training a neural network to compile code vs writing a parser.
Eh, worked fine for me in Latin. Well, until "Hannibal, with his friends, the Romans, traversed the alps". At least my teacher had her laugh for the year.
I mean it's probably the best way to get some basic proficiency in a language or any skill, teach you enough to become familiar with the language and give you the confidence to move to the next level.

Rote learning and gamified approaches like duolingo have a low barrier to entry; buying a textbook, enrolling in a class or living in the country for a year are much higher and the latter two are prohibitively expensive and time-consuming for casual learners.

> You need to learn to think in the language you are learning

The article uses code to illustrate how this might be different thinking in Japanese with a URL request:

> request.setURL("serverurl").send()"

I think there is formality/ceremony here like "I have a request, it is for this URL, and I want to send" vs. the other style in the article: send().request.setURL("serverurl") is more forceful as in "I'm sending you a request for this URL" there is no politeness of the exchange.

I almost had a business trip to Japan some years back and people were discussing the formal and polite ceremonial business card exchange process with certain sequences of presenting, bowing, etc. I think learning about the cultural norms might be a key here with learning the language and the reasons why things are structured differently.

And language "learning" via duolingo was tremendous disservice provided by technology. They basically took the worst method of learning (flashcards) and made it available in the 21st century as something "revolutionary".
I tried learning it with Duolingo and was disappointed to see it was just trying to teach me characters via rote-memorization... gave up after a 10-day streak
Duolingo doesn't manage to show you the structure of the language. I wasted a very long time with Duolingo. It's much better to use the time on just about anything else if you want to learn Japanese.
Yes! And I would insist that learning how the language works is easier, even if it might seem more intimidating at first.

If you just want to get by for your holidays, sure just learn to translate with Duolingo. But if want to speak the language, you will just lose time.

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