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I wrote the article. So you can yell at me here. Thanks again for all the interesting comments. Hacker news is the best. One of the few places I read the comments and learn.

Hey Chris - I wanted to drop a note here to thank you for what you've done for me personally. I found you first on Twitter I don't know how long ago and your posts there really brought home to me the point about how we were all talking past each other and don't engage in real conversations with people who might have different viewpoints from our own.

When my kids were younger we went on a camping trip every summer in a state park. There was this one group of people that we would hang out with each year (I called it "redneck corner") who were easily the most friendly and welcoming people in the entire campground. They would feed you, watch your kids, hand you a beer when you came by and we would just sit by the campfire and shoot the shit until the wee hours of the morning. They had nothing in common with me and my world and I loved it. I still remember their stories today.

Reading this post of yours today reminded me of those times, your writings (I loved Dignity), and the need for me to get out of my private office in my house and actually meet people who are different from me again. Until I figure out how to do that, I want to thank you for everything that you do to help me better understand the world a little bit better.

>When I decided to go to Vietnam, everything and everyone told me to go to Ho Chi Minh City. It had better food. More art. More high culture. Less government. So I went to Hanoi.

>The US equivalent is to go to Indianapolis instead of NYC or Houston instead of LA.

This is a really odd thing to say when Hanoi is the second largest city in Vietnam (larger than LA) and a huge tourist destination in itself. It's more akin to choosing LA instead of NYC.

I thought that was a very weird comment as well and your comment about it being like choosing between NYC and LA is spot on.

I am also surprised there's no mention of train travel. I found this the best way to get to know a country and its people. When you're stuck on a train for hours you end up talking to your fellow passengers.

India was great for this as everyone was chatty and spoke decent English. Vietnam was a bit more of a challenge on the language front but you still got to have some interesting conversations in basic English with some help by showing pictures.

I did not go very far off the beaten path in Vietnam but I really enjoyed the vibe and night life in Huế.

This is not 2000 or 2010 any more. On a train virtually everyone has a smartphone, tablet or laptop, very few are “stuck” there for hours having nothing entertaining to do other than striking up a conversation with a stranger. At least in wealthier countries and on more comfortable trains.

And then there are people like me who always disliked chatty strangers, even back in 2000.

I would argue that Hanoi is more touristy than Ho Chi Minh so this comparison just tells me the author doesn’t know what he is talking about
Hanoi feels more novel to Americans than Ho Chi Minh, which feels like a fairly generic city. At least that's how I felt visiting the two.

Another thing you have to remember is that there are a lot of southern Vietnamese in the US, who brought their food with them. The average American has experienced more of south Vietnam than north without ever having visited.

Seeing the difference between a city that I perceived to be kind of emulating western culture (Ho Chi Minh), versus Hanoi, which has a culturally distinct feel about it, can reasonably lead a person to see a touristy city as a more cultural experience.

From an ameri-centric point of view, HCM is inundated with a kind of unpleasant or generic tourism (eat at these places, eat on a boat, go to this market, go to this tower, go to these museums, go to these "palaces," climb into vietnamese tunnels) compared to Hanoi where a lot of the tourism is related to both food and how beautiful the country is. It's kind of the difference between "this food is objectively good" and "this food is new and interesting."

The French Quarter in Hanoi is like stepping into a video game where Paris has been overgrown by Jungle. Incredible.

https://imgur.com/a/wpYbaq9

Hanoi is one of my favorite cities in Asia. I'd probably place it number 3 after Taipei and Seoul (followed by Penang and Da Nang/Hoi An).

Beautiful pictures!

Ive been to both and I definitely considered Hanoi more (locally) cultured. Also the comparison to Indianapolis doesn't make sense a smaller east coast US city like Washington DC or Boston makes more sense as it's a cultural and ideological center of the country.
Did you leave District 1? Just curious. HCM didn't hit for me until I started getting out of that curated core.
Hey, Chris - I think one of the difficulties I had with your article(and with other writing like it), having lived outside the US and trying to travel like this occasionally then, is that we don't really get to live as the locals live. I spent most of my time in one specific corner of the world, and I see a difference of thought process in people who are tourists, people who travel, and people who live in another culture. I think you're in the second category, which is not bad, but I think that there is a real sense of particular place missing from your writing, while there is a distinct mindset missing from my place (the third category) that lead to both intrinsically lacking the full appreciation of the other. When we travel, we live like some facsimile of local life if we stay in an AirBnB and go to local places, but we still are relatively rich, white (?male?) people with the option to leave the place when we want to, and don't get a good, deep sense of the culture. It's hard to be a real regular somewhere, for example, when it's clear that you are a rich visitor who will be coming regularly for a while, spending a good amount of money, and then leaving. From your writing, for example, I felt like you misunderstood the compliment that Jamal, the Turkish restaurant owner, gave you when he complimented the economic status that has allowed you to gain weight. I lived somewhere in a decent amount of privilege while working for several years, and it was only after regular, constant, and questioning exposure to the culture that I began to understand it past the surface. I don't see how your wide travel to many different cultures lets you get a deep understanding of any specific one.

Put another way, (which can seem attacking, not my intent, I just can't think of a way to say this better in a short comment) the tourist has an experience an inch wide and an inch deep, the traveler has an experience a mile wide and a foot deep, and the person who goes to live in a third country for a term that includes the word years has an experience a foot wide and a mile deep. We just should all recognize what our experiences are.

Solid writing, rolling is the way for clothes, one backpack where at all possible(mine was larger than yours, but still so much easier to just carryon when going to visit somewhere), and I greatly enjoyed my visits to place I described as 'Wichita, $COUNTRY', just not as much as living somewhere for years.

Even foreigners living in a country among the locals people often miss a lot. That shouldn't be surprising, we miss a ton of stuff even in our own country while speaking the same language. Have you ever heard someone from your country tell foreigners about what people in your country are like, and thought "what are they talking about"?

There's just so much variation, it's hard to really say. I've known people who lived in a country for years, don't speak the language, and live in their small expat circle. I've known typical tourist types who found themselves living among the locals because they ended up on a local tour. Or people that don't live in a country, but have studied the language and consumed the local media to an extent that they have a better understanding of a lot of cultural trends than people who lived or visited the place.

In the end, it's probably best to let go of the idea that any one person is going to see the "true" place, or that one city is more "authentic" than another. Everyone, even the locals, are just going to know some piece of a much larger whole. I'm not sure how useful it is to argue about which piece is better than the others.

You are absolutely correct that authenticity is hard to find, and that foreigners do not truly experience the culture as the locals. I hope I didn’t give that impression in my post. And my intention is not to argue, but rather to point out that someone transiting through a place in just a few years does not know that place deeply. The method of life that Chris describes has value, and is good. It’s just not the complete picture (nor am I saying that anyone has a complete picture)
You seem to object to doing touristy stuff, but you neglect the fact that locals also do touristy stuff[1]. I agree going to resort towns is silly, but anyone with a keen eye will learn a lot about local culture just walking around and observing in any neighborhood.

My favorite observation, Chinese apartments with dedicated areas to hang dry clothing outside, the drying area is fenced off, in some places I saw, using decorative columns, with line/bar put up to hang clothing on. Apartments have a large window that opens to the fenced off area, and a stick with a hook on the end is used to put clothing out on hangers. There is still some privacy of what is being hung up, and it looks much neater, and presumably it keeps birds and such away.

Wonderful bit of home design.

Another bit that stuck with me, I was staying at an AirBNB in downtown Mexico City, when I went out in the morning I saw store owners mopping down the fronts of their stores to get rid of the dust and grime. I've never seen stores in the US care enough to bother.

[1] If you come to the Pacific Northwest and don't hike a mountain or go out on a lake, why the heck did you come and visit in the first place? And as a third gen Seattle resident, I've done plenty of shopping at Pike Place Market.

Unfortunately people are only seeing the bad in this article. I do similar things with my family but not so extreme. I've really found that restaurants/food are the keys to understanding the local culture. I will never forget in Pureto Rico we found a back street lechonera, when we were getting food I asked the woman behind us what was good to eat. She helped us then we sta with her for lunch. My family ended up spending almost 2 hours talking to her over lunch and got deep in to PR politics and such. An amazing experience.

What I've found helps the most is asking questions. Any time you can ask someone a question they open up and you end up making connections and learning so much. Usually it's simple stuff like sitting at a full bar and asking the person next to you how the sandwich is, or what is on their pizza. Next thing you know you're making a friend and you're actually having real conversations with locals.

Speaking as a NW European: talking to random people and asking them random questions is like the perfect way to stand out as a foreigner, probably American :-)

Eat in silence and leave others to their own, that's the key to the local culture here. Especially in situations like public transport, people like their silence on their commute.

Are there any cultures, other than American, that are the exact opposite of this?
I wouldn't take their comment seriously.

Someone who shudders at the thought having to answer "what's a good place to eat around here" before scuttling away into the shadows, wounded, isn't going to give good social advice.

But if you want cultures where it's particularly easy to talk to strangers much like in southern USA, latin america is always good.

Aside, there's nothing wrong with standing out as someone with enough social grace to connect with others around you. Being too scared to talk to someone because nobody is talking is a self-limiting belief. Be someone. Leave an impression. As Matthew McConaughey says, stick in people's minds like wet dogshit. Be the guy so brave that he can risk it all by asking "what's a good place to eat around here" to a stranger.

I would suggest Costa Rica. I went there and kept to myself, partly not wanting to seem the Ugly American and partly because my Spanish is sh8t. More often than not somebody would approach me in an offputtingly-friendly way, I would be kind of afraid, and it would turn out in the end they were just super friendly.
I look at it as kind of the inverse. Anywhere that isn’t too developed usually has people that are curious and friendly with time on their hands. Its modern urbanized areas where people too busy or distrustful to talk.
Wow. So many comments. I wish I could respond to all, but life.

Thanks again and always enjoy when a post of mine makes it to Hacker news. I appreciate the feedback, and actually listen to it, and when wrong, try to adjust.

Thanks again!

I generally would agree that touristy city centers tend to feel similar to each other, be polished and therefore boring. However, your example of Hanoi couldn't be more hilariously misguided. Your characterisation of touristy areas ("places of quaint storefronts mobbed with American retirees, hip bars filled with plastered 25 year old Brits, and a few monuments with millions of Instagram posts. Despite being in very different cities, they all feel the same. You have your five star hotels. Your restaurants that everyone says you have to go to. Your buildings plastered with historic plaques") is completely off the mark. The old town of Hanoi is precisely where locals go in the evenings for a cheap beer on the streets - it doesn't get more typically Vietnamese than that. And the old town of Hanoi definitely does not feel the same as anywhere else, even just within South East Asia, Hanoi is known as a very special place.

Don't get me wrong, exploring other areas of Hanoi is a wonderful experience as well.

I agree that there's a lot of value in traveling beyond the beaten tourist path, especially with the bit that this path tends to have a certain sameness to it, regardless of where you actually are. However I disagree with going out of your way to avoid it. Writing off entire cities because they're big or popular is needlessly contrarian. If you're seeking the lived experience of locals, why not go visit the NYC-equivalent of their country?

Also can't help but point out your characterization of Hanoi as the Indianapolis of Vietnam is ridiculous. Perhaps in comparative size, but Hanoi is the old capital of Northern Vietnam, and remains a fascinating vestige of what "old" Vietnam was like. No offense, but Indianapolis is Indianapolis.

I don't write off entire cities. I do make choices with limited time. As I write,

"That doesn’t mean entirely ignoring places like NYC, Istanbul, Seoul, or Tokyo. Some cities are so important they can’t be missed, and every city is a confederation of very different neighborhoods. NYC is as much Dyker Heights as it is Upper East Side.

That makes where you stay in a city more important than the city itself. "

I wasn't attempting to suggest Hanoi is the Indianapolis of Vietnam. I was Just using a stretched example to go to the less obvious place. Maybe I'm wrong, but the vibes I got here in my world is Hanoi is the less obvious place compared to Saigon.

Less obvious place would be Ninh Binh (my favorite place and experience from visiting Vietnam), not the first/second most famous place in Vietnam everyone knows (Hanoi/Saigon), or at least go for Danang, Hue, Hoi An, Nha Trang and all of these are on tourist trail anyway.
I like your style. Hanoi is a major tourist city, so I think you are really missing your stated goal because locals are familiar with tourists and the wants of tourists. Your desire for a cafe or bar says something? In my experience most cities in the world have a sameness that makes it easy to plug yourself in.

In my own country (New Zealand) when travelling I try to find places that are small (less than a few thousand population), perhaps without any accomodation (a sign of being a tourist destination). One great advantage of going to small towns overseas is that they are safe. Tourist cities are the most unsafe places I have travelled to (I particularly had unsafe situations in Rio and Nha Trang).

Perhaps apply your restaurant thinking, but just go a lot lot further down that path?

In many countries, I have felt like a millionaire, because the difference in income and situation is so profound. In Vietnam I remember talking with someone who’s monthly salary was USD50. I have met many people who had a disposable income of a few dollars a month. USD50 is less than my daily budget which is pure disposable money and is relatively obscene wealth (cost of flights alone exceeded USD50 per day: flights are expensive from New Zealand). I was just tooling around, like some sort of rich playboy, with no cares because I had been given everything by my country. I also remember how small many people were, because their food intake was limited by their means. I have very little capacity to relate, because I have never been in similar shoes (I do remember being astonished at the casual wealth of some Japanese and Americans when I was younger, but I haven’t lacked for anything in my life so it is entirely different).

I notice the same dynamic at home: my income as a software dev is radically different from many people I know. My disposable income is ridiculous: one acquaintance worked 40hours a week and was left with $20 to spend on themselves after expenses. I struggle to relate with a profit of 50 cents per hour.

Using google maps to spot out a non-touristy area was ingenious.

I live near the spot you showed in the example that you picked.

I would suggest next time trying out another method, not based on restaurants, but on using Historical Map: look at the city and go back 100 years, then look at the city in the present, and either choose a place that has not changed at all, or a place that was a slum and now is housing.

Thank you for writing 'Dignity.' I've read it, shared it, given it away.

You gave a tip during a panel in Chapel Hill about learning from others by switching where to get your morning coffee, e.g. from Starbucks to McDonalds, or more local places. I've added it to my list of tactics and am richer for it.

Saigon is also good choice for your travel. Don't be biased by people talking. I can see some parts of me in your post when I went to Saigon. (Fun fact: I'm Vietnamese living in Hanoi)

Next time if you have time, come and enjoy your education in Saigon.

Thanks! Will do. I also went to Hanoi so I could explore the towns around the Chinese border. That didn't go so well. But was interesting.

Thanks again

Can you elaborate? What was wrong with them?
I'm from Idaho, I feel like someone could drop me anywhere in the world and I'd probably do ok. Unless there's humidity j/k :-P

Kind of a random question, but what do you think about van life aka Instagram tourism?

We're seeing a lot of stacked rock piles, trash left at campsites, defaced natural formations, just people in general crowding into areas that used to be "secret". We have a sense that people visiting here don't share our values around leaving no trace. Is that happening everywhere? Is it a trend? Will it get better or worse? Etc etc.

In hindsight, this wasn't a great question. I don't associate vandalism with van life or Instagram tourism. A lot of people found time to travel during the pandemic, some for the first time, and the large numbers of tourists were probably the main cause of any damage. I just worry about the damage worsening if more people are able to be digital nomads but don't work at their own personal responsibility.
i have been traveling with a similar aim, to get to know people and learn about the day-to-day life. and i wish i would have had some of your ideas. like eating at the same restaurant frequently to get to know the people there. i used couchsurfing (and earlier equivalents) to find locals to stay with.

i agree with most of what you say. maybe not the part about picking the worst season. i'd mellow that one to "avoid tourist seasons". i want to go somewhere there there are not many other foreigners.

i also went one step further after i finished studying, and went to places to actually work there, for 6 months, or a year, or more. in one decade i lived in a dozen different countries. i always connected to local linux user groups and local chapters of other communities that i was part of. (if you practice some sport, then join the local sports club to continue practicing). i went to local tech events, even if they were in a language i didn't speak. just showing up regularly allowed me to make new friends.

one thing that was important to me is that i intentionally didn't reading anything about the places i went to. i want to experience a place without it being colored through the reports of other foreigners.

and in a manner i am still traveling. i have been back home to visit, but i haven't lived there for more than 20 years.

"and went to places to actually work there, for 6 months, or a year, or more" -- yeah if you have the ability to do that (job, family, etc) that is a great way to live IMO.

You mention the local linux groups. My brother, who does something similar to you, uses the local Ping Pong clubs. He is a top rated player, and its enough of a niche sport, but one that is everywhere, that its a great international community

I loved the article. It puts to words some patterns I have been developing in my mind throughout the years. I haven't got the experience to go that hardcore on localness yet, so my current algo is to seek destinations where the locals go to tourist. I find it a confortable middle ground between the shiny global touristy places and "contrarian ultra-local" places (if I can borrow a term tossed around here, not judging the article in any way).
Please get rid of that subscription popup.

OR make it only show on consecutive visits (not the first one), and make the "let me read this first" option a bit more obvious. I've been looking aimlessly for an obvious X or No and missed the option the first time around.

That's a substack thing that I'm completely unaware of and I think powerless to do anything about.
You can block the HTML element yourself with uBlock Origin's dropper tool.
To the degree I have a difference of opinion, it is around the idealization of planning and packing light.

I believe the most excellent choices are best made on the ground and the expedition is a great way to explore.

The airport genericizes travel. It removes distance and vastness and remoteness.

Flying gives you an MP3 - and that may be good enough - but it is not the band playing live in someone’s living room.

Getting there puts the flyer among travelers very much similar dealing with very much the same things at the same time. Airport food, flight delays, seat pitch, luggage limitations, etc., etc.

Traveling light as virtue is heavy baggage exchanged for a 61 key synth and a worn tea kettle.

YMMV.

The most interesting and beautiful places in Vietnam are not in the large cities. It is the countryside and the places that foreigners almost never travel to.

The places where you don't see another white person for weeks on end (mostly in the North West of Hanoi... especially Ha Giang area).

The places that are really hard to travel in if you don't have a local who can speak the language. Why hard? Because just getting food or even a place to crash in a random tiny town late at night (because it took you too long to drive there), is a real struggle.

Hey Chris, just wanted to say I love Dignity, and enjoy listening to you on various podcasts. The Econtalk episode and the recent Lamp Magazine ones were great!
Thanks so much. Really appreciate that.
Your viewpoint on walking matches my own. I refuse cabs when traveling. However, public transit is usually fair game for me, because that seems part of the culture itself and should be experienced.

Have you ever visualized your GPS tracks(if available) of your walks around a city?

How do you get PB&J through airport security?

Also, can you somehow turn off your subscription popup on your website just on the "About" page (where I'm not reading any of your content yet)?

You seem to have some nice candid photography.

How do you not get the PB&J through airport security? You can bring any food. The ban on liquids is because liquid explosives can’t be frozen. So anyone bringing most okay liquids (e.g. soup) can just freeze it but people trying to bring something very flammable (e.g. ethanol) wouldn’t be able to.
My buddy had a jar of peanut butter confiscated because it was a "cream"
Should have gotten chunky /s

More seriously, though, your friend would have needed to either freeze the peanut butter or put it on a sandwich in a serving of less than 3.4 ounces.

Enjoyed the article! I saw your line about not really caring what you look like and wanted to add that throwing a collared shirt and light sweater into your bag will open many, many doors.
You missed out on Saigon by picking Hanoi though :)
The whole point of the article is that he prefers to "miss out"
Ha. Yeah. Maybe next time.

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