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crateless parent
Are we now admitting that NATO was in Ukraine? I thought that was verboten.
ceejayoz
NATO has been training Ukrainian troops openly for years. Seems to be paying off, too. https://www.mil.gov.ua/en/news/2019/09/30/new-ukrainian-brig...

They are not in Ukraine participating in combat in the current conflict.

WJW
NATO is not "in" Ukraine with troops, they are supplying weapons to Ukraine. This is not exactly a secret, it's all over the news.
kevin_thibedeau
NATO soldiers have been conducting training operations in Ukraine since the Crimea takeover.
stjohnswarts
Russian soldiers have been helping rebels and openly fighting in east Ukraine for years as well. Let's not act like Russia didn't start the need for this.
yyyk
I recall these soldiers were evacuated just before the war.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/feb/12/uk-troops-se...

gattilorenz
I suggest reading back your own past comments for a quick reality check:

> There is basically no escalation from Russia. [...]. It is just convenient (Biden's domestic issues/Nordstream 2/other unknown reasons) to claim imminent invasion and the media is incentivised to fuel that narrative since it seems to have captured the attention of the populace at large (perhaps based on the Russophobia that is prevalent in mainstream media).

Maybe it's time to be extra aware of your own biases against Russia, NATO, mainstream media...

crateless OP
I was wrong. I admit that. I spoke from a position of superficial knowledge at the time as I ignored the wider context of the situation and was commenting from a position of received wisdom as I was unaware of what a parent post mentioned regarding a widely known fact that NATO was in Ukraine providing thousands of weapons, I was not aware of that and was only commenting on the basis of "received wisdom" on a particular situation.

I have examined my bias against mainstream media and still find them completely warranted, thank you.

macintux
So you're implying that NATO providing defensive weapons to Ukraine is the reason Putin invaded? That seems a stretch.
crateless OP
No, I am saying that I had not taken Russia's threat model into account. Given that threat model, Ukraine is an existential issue for them and the resolution of the uncertainty that has been in place since 2004 was just a matter of time.
macintux
It’s safe to say Ukraine is an existential threat to Putin. Russia as a nation shouldn’t care that Ukraine is democratic and integrating with Europe, except to ask why they couldn’t also.
crateless OP
I don't see how Ukraine being democratic is an existential threat to Putin in any meaningful way. This situation has been almost 14 years in the reckoning since April 2008.

The NATO-US acting from Ukraine possibly attempting to foment "color" revolutions in Russia, NATO missiles on Ukraine soil, an increasingly belligerent leader in Ukraine renewing the push to join NATO and NATO-US arming and training Ukraine troops. These seem to be more likely factors in the invasion.

Given that the "West" has been frothing around the mouth for his ouster (he did once ask to join NATO btw), one could conclude that "He who goes first wins" was a viable strategy for him.

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