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Interesting to see the deep skepticism in the comments.

I attended St John's College - which is probably as close as a "real" school can get to the Catherine Project - and loved every minute. Grades were not given, and there were no professors or lectures.

Seeing criticism about the business model and lack of tests, worry about educational fads, etc, is missing the point, in my opinion.

Consider the possibility that a group of adults may want to engage in rich and historically important works of thought, but have no interest in the trappings of educational institutions, with their tuition, grades, etc. Like a bible study, but without the bible. If you feel threatened by this, ask yourself why.


I had a law school professor who attended St. John's for undergraduate, and while most professors at my law school tried (more than many other law schools, AFAIU) to stick to the Socratic Method, the two classes I attended of his were by far the most engaging on account of his proficiency with and commitment to the method. While most professors' biases, including their politics, tended to bleed through to some degree, it was only after I graduated and took the time to read over some of his own published scholarly works that I realized he held some diametrically opposed political and legal views to my own.

I also had the privilege of attending some Great Books courses at my high school and always regretted not applying to St. John's for undergraduate. I would like to attend some discussions organized by The Great Books Council of San Francisco (https://www.greatbooksncal.org/), though it's difficult to find time.

> Like a bible study, but without the bible.

Yeah, exactly. Or hackerspaces. Or OSS. Or presenting at DEFCON. (And, yes, these folks will include this project in their tenure/promotion cases and therefore indirectly benefit professionally even if they don't charge just like in the cases above.)

My only real "criticism" of this model is that the people doing this work shouldn't shy away from asking for "tithes"... humanities professors are criminally under-paid and plenty of folks would pay to attend these sorts of seminars (in the same way that most people tithe at church).

Do most people tithe at church?
Even in churches without official tithes, there's a collection plate passed. Operations must be funded, employees need to be fed, housed, clothed.
I guess growing up people would toss a few bucks in the collection plate. It wasn’t until I was an adult that I learned that my Dad would write a significant check to the church every month in addition to the few dollars we passed in the plate (we were a blue collar family, but my parents prioritized tithing, which helped to subsidize the school that was affiliated with the church). My understanding is that the plate is not a significant portion of the church’s revenue, but maybe other churches put larger checks into the collection plate.
> Dad would write a significant check to the church every month

That's also tithing (and is completely normal for regular church goers... bible says 10% to the church and a lot of folks follow that prescription)

Our family put the checks in the collection plate. They certainly do get donations from other places, and of course they don't pay taxes.
In the United States, most churches are open to anyone who wants to come in, but often being a "member" of the church requires providing some form of formal support, such as tithing (members typically have at least some say in church policy, while random congregants do not). Congregants (who may not be official members) also generally add something to the collection plate when it comes around.

Some countries still have "established" churches, which historically received direct government support from tax money (this is not always the case today... while the Church of England is still the "established" church in England, it no longer receives direct taxpayer support). Others may have a group of recognized churches that can receive taxpayer support (Germany is that way, I believe... you declare your religious affiliation, and if it is on the government-approved list, the government tax authorities will collect the tax and remit it to the church).

I've never been in an American church that required any particular form of support, for what it's worth.

Most churches did give sermons on the subject, but there was never a direct consequence for ignoring that teaching.

It's the parish policy at many Eastern Orthodox churches in the U.S. that a member (which is to say: Someone who can vote at the annual meeting) have a pledge form on file.
Mormons have a special access tier of people who donate 10% of their income
> often being a "member" of the church requires providing some form of formal support, such as tithing

This sounds very suspect to me. Do you have any sources for this assertion?

I've never heard of a church requiring any form of support, tithe etc to be a member or at all. I've been attending church and have been a member of several for 20+ years.

Tithing 10% comes from the laws of moses in the old testament, and most denominations agree that providing some material support to the church is an obligation, but dont formally specify the extent. Catholic parishes often recommend 5% to the church, and 5% to the poor / needy through one means or another.

OTOH, a nearby Unitarian / mega-style church made signing a form with your annual salary and a pledge to tithe a minimum percentage a formal requirement for membership. I heard they were active in enforcing it, but never bothered joining.

I.e. see https://www.uua.org/finance/fundraising/generosity/185418.sh...

Note under the "collection plate" header that they suggest you give in a way that has your name on it so it can count toward your pledge- they definitely track individual tithes.

Just a quick, non-exhaustive web search:

http://ascensionfairview.org/contribute/parish-membership/ (Orthodox) $450/year

https://www.templeshalom.org/dues (Jewish) $3,950/year (based on 2 adult household)

https://www.buddhistchurch.org/membership (Buddhist) $44/month

https://beulahbaptist.org/flc/membership/ (Baptist) $30/month

As I said, few churches (or others houses of worship) will charge you a fee for attending services (other than the plate coming around), but if you want a say in church governance you usually have to pony up, either with formal dues or a less-formal expectation that you will provide significant financial support.

I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, mind you.

Have you actually been involved in church governance in the churches you've attended?

I'm in my 40s and attended a Baptist Church in my youth that required formal members to tithe. It was the primary reason my parents stopped taking us there.

> Do you have any sources for this assertion?

Don't be that person. Take or leave the anecdote, but don't make an asinine request of evidence for something clearly anecdotal.

10% of income is the standard
Yeah, "tithe" is an old (Middle English?) word for "tenth".
That's just enormous, seems like a strong disincentive to join
I agree students should be encouraged to donate if they are able. However, charging something close to "market rate" for this kind of thing would definitely affect who ends up attending.
I don’t understand all the negativity either. The article I read described a group of people who were genuinely interested in learning, so much so that the organizers do it for free. Sure there are no grades or degrees, but who cares? The education is the point, and really it’s the only point.

It feels like a lot of the comments boil down to “well my education was different so I can’t take this seriously.”

Hey it's a Johnnie HN thread. There are dozens of us. Dozens!

I've been very loosely involved in Interintellect[0], which itches a similar scratch and looks spiritually very similar to the Catherine Project, with perhaps less of a focus on great books and a wider, more modern gamut.

For anyone considering Catherine Project, Interintellect, or St. John's College, I heartily recommend them. Diligently reading through deep written work, then discussing it with other people genuinely interested and invested in the work and the dialogue is a wonderful experience and one that's hugely shaped me.

[0]https://interintellect.com/

> Interesting to see the deep skepticism in the comments.

I think if we look at the title and ignore the content of the article itself, it explains why the reaction was so strong.

A title that contains the word "liberal" and mentions experimenting with education is not going to bring out the most level-headed readers.

I'm guessing you mean this St. John's:

https://www.sjc.edu/

(If so: Color me jealous.)

That's the one! They have a graduate program that you can participate in part-time...something to consider!
Or the Catherine Project :D
Never heard of SJC. Reading about it and their curriculum makes me happy and also jealous ;)
That's awesome I always wanted to talk to a St John's alumni. I heard most universities have a "great books" style course, do you know the difference? I'd love my daughter to do something like this.
The entirety of the four-year undergraduate curriculum is centered around great books, and there are no specific majors.

https://www.sjc.edu/academic-programs/undergraduate/great-bo...

What's your favorite book?
I think it's a 3-way tie between Aristotle's Ethics, Spinoza's Ethics, and Euclid's Elements.
Given that these types of schools (at least in Europe) have a long history of delivering students not ready for jobs or subsequent education, the scepticism is entirely warranted.
The article's not about a school.

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