Preferences

They also are sitting around listening to leaderships carefully crafted justification day in and day out. I’ve had otherwise smart engineers who work in advertising tell me that people enjoy looking them, and any criticism of “user engagement at any cost” is met with bewilderment.

I honestly believe these sorts of blindspots of morality and critical thinking are due to under-exposure to the humanities. A lot of guys in tech could do with reading something - anything - that isn't 538 or a tech blog.
Humanities don’t teach critical thinking anymore than a standard engineering degree. Standard engineering degrees include courses on ethics, basic logic, etc. If you don’t pick up the ability to think critically from that, you’re certainly not going to get it researching humanities.
I went to college for computer programming. Included was a course on business ethics. Later on a job near the end of the programming I saw a possible major problem that would put the company in a bad ethical position (possible legal proceeding to under payment, ANY UNDER payment). When I bought this up with the CEO of the company all he wanted to know was the costs of the extra programming and instead insisted they would manually avoid the problem despite the fact that legal costs would far out weight the programming costs if things went wrong. He refused the extra programming.

Guess what? That company does not exist today.

Did the CEO have more ore fewer humanities courses than you in his undergraduate program?
I feel like this is a case for a lawyer though. The problem is, how do you convince your boss to seek out a lawyer?
Engineering degrees include one, perhaps two courses on those topics. You can scrape a bare pass on the second try without taking in the material and graduate in 3.5 years instead of 3.

In a well-run humanities degree you would never pass the first year without being able to critically engage with difficult ideas, although I would have no trouble believing there are institutions that offer poorly-run ones.

I have a B.S. CS from NYU and I think I had 6 humanities, two specifically dealing with critically engaging with different and difficult ideas, 1 ethics, an additional writing course and two electives from what I recall. I imagine there are many more engineering degrees with requirements like mine. As an aside I also minored in philosophy and I know of multiple engineers who have done similar. I think painting with broad generalities does your point a disservice.

I'll also raise the point a lot more people simply don't care or don't believe these things to be unethical than I think a lot of people are willing to admit.

> able to critically engage with difficult ideas

Discussing the different sides of difficult ideas in a classroom setting is not critical thinking. The ideas don’t even need to be “difficult” to practice critical thinking on.

Humanities does focus a lot on teaching students the current critical views of lots of things in society. But they focus far too much on the substance of the critiques rather than the process of generating and meaningfully evaluating them.

I think you are making general assumptions that are not universally true. I know its the hot take to consider any humanities program to be brain washing kids into SJWs.

Philosophy's basic main tenet is to critically engage with ideas. ONE aspect of that is to engage ideas in the politic sense

> Philosophy's basic main tenet is to critically engage with ideas.

And humanities students no longer do this. If they did, the notion of suppressing the communication of ideas rather than refuting them would be repugnant. However, this instead the first tool reached for by students who find something uncomfortable. Title 9 inquisitions, etc.

It’s not necessarily brainwashing, but it’s awfully coincidental they have nearly uniform political opinions coming out of university and can’t defend them when critically challenged.

> teaching students the current critical views of lots of things in society

Having taken the time to pursue some amount of humanities education next to an engineering degree, this isn't even close to true. If anything, humanities education is a celebration of all the things that it can mean to be human. That certain ideas are currently broadly in vogue in society (in this case I guess for the vocal minority you could say it is "nice at all costs" and "being nice should be criminal" with very little in between) is immaterial to what's happening in such a classroom.

I mean you need to read Marcus Aurelius and Kierkegaard and stuff to learn from the best thinkers on developing a purpose in life. You can do that in a class labeled ENG or LIT or PHL, the designation is hardly relevant, but lots of engineering degrees simply don’t assign this kind of reading.
Reading about the “best thinkers” developing “a purpose in life” is not critical thinking. It’s just reading. Reading about great thinkers makes you a great thinker in the same way that reading about astronauts makes you an astronaut.
It doesn't make you a great thinker, but it is certainly a requirement.

it is necessary but not sufficient.

Did Einstein make relativity or Nietzsche "Thus Spake Zarathustra " in a vacuum?

I’m not saying you read a biography of Marcus Aurelius, I’m saying you read Meditations. It’s basically one of the enduring blueprints for developing a plan for your life from first principles.
I did not suggest a biography. When you read Meditations, you are ‘Reading about the “best thinkers” developing “a purpose in life”’. It’s still just someone else’s blueprint for “purpose”, even if it is a good one. That doesn’t teach you how to be a great thinker.
The humanities aren't especially good at promoting critical thinking. A very large amount of (I do not use this term lightly) bullshit flourishes in the humanities. The Sokal hoax was 25 years ago and the conditions that provoked it have not improved.
The Sokal hoax (and the sequel linked by the commenter below) exposes the negligence of mostly America-centric journals centered in sexuality/race/identity. But that really doesn’t represent the entirety of continental philosophy, and that shouldn’t be an excuse to ditch your education on humanities as a whole.

There’s a lot of bullshit papers in every field (including computer science) now, due to the corporatization of universities and its chase for numerical metrics. It’s our job as independent thinkers to wade through the bullshit, find the hidden gems, and arrive at our own conclusions. My current take is that if you’re actually trying to find some serious philosophy, don’t look at journal papers but actual full books by philosophers (which is becoming rarer and rarer due to the incentives to pump out high-metric papers).

Not to mention the unbelievably exploitative humanities academia job market. Anyone doing a humanities PhD at this point needs either independent wealth or pathological ignorance of how callously the academy is treating the careers of new scholars. You'd think training in critical thinking would protect you against faith in a blatantly callous institution.
It was reproduced to even more dramatic effect just a few years ago:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grievance_studies_affair

Yeah, I really doubt that reading any given book has an impact morality other than inducing a sort of selection effect (i.e. people who are not interested in the environment won't read The Silent Spring unless compelled to do so in high school).

I'm assuming by your concurrence with the comment above you and your association of that comment with "blindspots of morality" that you believe advertising is immoral. Forgive me if this is mistaken, but hopefully it's clear at least how I came by this impression. I am here to tell you that a person can be a reader of Orwell, or Mieville, or whoever, and still not agree with you on a position like the one you've implicitly espoused. You can have similar base principles as someone and come to very different moral conclusions based on a number of things, like access to different data or relatively subtle nuances in you take on some of those principles.

Any given book? The comment wasn't talking about particular books. Or even necessarily books at all.
"reading" and "the humanities" basically implies books or plays. Sorry if you don't see it what way, but I do.
"anything that isn't 538 or a tech blog" implies more than that to me, but I'd rather you focus on the other part of what I said.

They're not asking for someone to read some particular books they like, but to go reading around and sampling the variety. Your criticism only really applies to the former.

My presumption is the notion is that if people would read the correct things, their minds would be expanded in the correct direction and suddenly they too would see that advertising is wrong (or any other preferred moral position). But let's say you're right and the person's idea was that if people would just read enough they'd come to the correct conclusion. Either way, it is not correct. That's now how reading works. You can find someone with any moral perspective who is widely read. Being widely read unlikely implies any moral perspective besides as a proxy for affluence and education.
Philosophy and Sociology undergrad here.

Nope. With the possible exception of moral philosophy. And even then, you get most "points" for making sound arguments for (what most people would consider to be) morally dubious standpoints, which is precisely the dynamic in play at all of these ethically bankrupt tech companies.

> morally dubious [...] ethically bankrupt

People can think different things than you or do things that you don't find acceptable and still conform to their own system of ethics (or model of morality). You may not approve, but that doesn't make "ethically bankrupt" a meaningful value judgement. It almost doesn't say anything at all, except perhaps about your views on ethical and moral absolutism.

Much of humanities these days is indoctrination into 'official' critical thinking blindspots, so I'm not sure if I'd agree.
If the biggest names in the game are ads and finance, you'll find a justification to climb your way into that job. What else are you supposed to do? A comfy middle class life is not a guarantee, and any ambiguous notions of moral duty are quickly discarded to secure some semblance of security.
So you take your money and then leave. But most don’t, they see the next income level coming up all the time. Are they at the “housing security in the Bay Area” leave or “retire at 40 or before/own a large boat/small plane”?
A lot of people with a solid grounding in the humanities have done really nasty things.
I don't think this would go quite how you expect. Consider that Peter Thiel is a popularizer of Rene Girard.
It’s very hard to make a person realize something when their paycheck depends on them not realizing it.
It would be extremely interesting to see what sort of conditioning or other source of behavioral differentiation (??) causes these people to simply not stumble on the overwhelming mountains of similar sentiment on the internet.
Did those engineers tell you that people enjoyed looking at ads, or did they tell you that people prefer looking at ads that are relevant to their search, when they made that search with commercial intent?

I have never heard anyone claim the first (Mind you, I don't go out of my way to ask people to say incredibly stupid things), but I have frequently heard the second statement getting misrepresented as the first. [1][2]

And there's also an entire canyon of statements on the spectrum[3] between the two, many of which I have heard.

[1] Mostly by engineers on, ah, this website.

[2] It's rather easy to make such a misrepresentation, just do a direct quote that drops everything after the word 'ads'.

[3] 'People prefer looking at ads[2] over paying', 'People prefer looking at X ads[2] over Y ads', etc, etc, etc.

>>> prefer looking at ads that are relevant to their search, when they made that search with commercial intent?

This is a good distinction, if it also contains the nub of the problem - "with commercial intent". FAANG have very little (no, they have no) way of telling if my intent is commercial or just day to day existence.

I spend most of my life not wanting to buy stuff, and yet most of my online interaction assumes that I am wallet out ready to buy ... something.

(I assume (as a straight man) this is what most women feel like on a night out.)

this is also why I think duckduckgo has the right approach - for all FAANGs targeting based in behaviour etc, they are trying 99% of the time not to present the best match given commercial intent but they are trying to convert non-commercial behaviour into commercial behaviour. No wonder the ad conversion rates are poor. And we could get pretty much same response rates with context-only ads ala duckduckgo - or even a tag in google like "shopping: men's trainers"

In short FAANG are like those guys trying to "neg" women into sex. All the effort is in the wrong place.

If you are searching for 'good hotel in x' or 'mechanic in y', it's a pretty safe bet to say that you probably have commercial intent.

If you live a truly ascetic life, it's possible that you don't make those kinds of searches.

If I'm looking for a good hotel in x, I probably want good information on the quality of hotels in x. I don't want ads about the hotels.
Yes that's true. (Hilariously, duckduckgo does not track me so my search history is hard to work out ...)

OK: who was phil hartman, alan may quotes, history of netscape, treatment for wrenched neck muscle, dad jokes and campsites in the new forest.

So yes, you could sell me something related to each of those (a dad joke book, a phil hartman dvd) but there is no commercial intent there except for the last, and that's more research than intent.

I am not spending my life in a state of purchasing arousal (I think the analogy to women navigating a world of men is interesting)

But more importantly the lead quality is terrible. I think this is what people are learning - FAANG almost always provides low quality lead density. (More research needed)

It may be a good explanation of Amazon's 20 billion dollar new ad business - if you search for anything in amazon you are almost certainly doing so with commercial intent.

Jeff might win again :-)

Commercial intent is not consent to be tracked and tagged. Would you visit a Walmart if you knew it had cameras tracking your every eye movement, even if they claimed it was anonymized?
Off-topic subject aside, for the vast majority of people the answer would be "yes". That still doesn't make it okay, but I feel like it highlights why that's not a good way to divine whether or not something is ok.
> Commercial intent is not consent to be tracked and tagged.

It's not, but that's not what this subthread is about.

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