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I don't really see the issue here with a surveillance drone to help keep the peace. I don't really care if it's "military technology" or not. Look, what happened was absolutely awful. People have a right to protest - and should, but peacefully. Riots, looting, burning buildings? Sorry, that's going to far.

If the government starts firing rockets at people from that drone - well that's another story. But that is clearly not what is happening here.


Well this is what we get for not listening. If your family and friends were being executed constantly you'd give up and rage too. Everyone has a breaking point - republicans were about to riot over wearing a mask to protect their families; these people are rioting over being murdered and ignored.

Disproportionate and inconsistent application are also a huge issue here - where were the drones when domestic terrorists took over the statehouse? If this technology is only going to be used against black people, then yes, it an incredibly dangerous thing

> Everyone has a breaking point - republicans were about to riot over wearing a mask to protect their families; these people are rioting over being murdered and ignored.

There was a republican protest over COVID where there was mass theft, looting, and arson?

Armed white men stormed Michigan's state Capitol if you don't remember. The only reason there was no violence is because the police were ordered to stand down. See the difference?
Stormed the capitol? You mean entered the capitol building -- as is your right as a citizen? Having a gun is not violence.

And, while police can certainly instigate violence, I find it difficult to believe that someone had to steal a TV from target or loot the apple store (as happened in portland) because the police instigated them to.

There are folks who are legitimately angry and are expressing that peacefully. And then there are people torching businesses, police stations and cars. Do you not think there is any sort of reasonable line being crossed here?

I don't think it's fair to say it's inconsistent use when the domestic terrorists (yes, I agree with that portrayal) took over the statehouse. They were all in the statehouse, or in the immediate vicinity. How is a drone going to help in that situation?

This is clearly a different situation with widespread rioting over a large geographic area.

Edit: it's possible I have some of my facts wrong here - that's totally on me. But as much as I disagree with the GOP/COVID protesters - to their credit, they didn't start firebombing their local grocery store.

No, they are being murdered, how would you respond? We can't possibly understand the anger these people feel. If an innocent man is murdered by police, and they riot as a result, we need to start listening.

As for the domestic terrorists, they were all out and about the city. Either way, a group of people with guns you watch, how could you know where they'd go next, or what they'd do. And the core fact is, if those white people were pepper sprayed by cops in the same fashion, they'd be rioting too.

Edit: I should emphasize that I don't condone torching random businesses, what I am saying is that as a white person, thats not my opinion to have in this discussion since its anger boiled over. Some people just had enough, and I don't blame them. We don't get to decide their form of outrage.

I'm sorry, but I don't think the solution is to immediately reach for a Molotov cocktail and firebomb a Target. We're just going to have to agree to disagree here.

Edit: the law defines the boundaries of what is acceptable outrage and what isn't.

Edit2: there is a world of difference between reasonable civil disobedience and firebombing your local Target.

> Edit: the law defines the boundaries of what is acceptable outrage and what isn't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Disobedience_(Thoreau)

"[i]t is not desirable to cultivate a respect for the law, so much as for the right. The only obligation which I have a right to assume is to do at any time what I think right.... Law never made men a whit more just; and, by means of their respect for it, even the well-disposed are daily made the agents of injustice."

ETA:

> Edit2: there is a world of difference between reasonable civil disobedience and firebombing your local Target.

What is "reasonable civil disobedience"? If that Target is only in the neighborhood because it's an experimental LP store put in an incredibly impoverished area so that they can develop better techniques for putting people of color in prison, is it suddenly reasonable? https://twitter.com/IanColdwater/status/1265867904844693505

Who are we to make that call, in either direction?

>...immediately reach...

One would have to ignore a large part of history in addition to events over the last 20 years to make the claim that this was a knee-jerk reaction.

"Certain conditions continue to exist in our society, which must be condemned as vigorously as we condemn riots. But in the final analysis, a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it that America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the Negro poor has worsened over the last few years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice, equality and humanity. And so in a real sense our nation’s summers of riots are caused by our nation’s winters of delay. And as long as America postpones justice, we stand in the position of having these recurrences of violence and riots over and over again. Social justice and progress are the absolute guarantors of riot prevention." --Martin Luther King.

"The Flag is drenched with our blood, because so many of our ancestors was killed because we have never accepted slavery. We had to live on it, but we never wanted it. So we know the flag is drenched with our blood. So what the young people are saying now - give us a chance to be young men [...] we know this country was built on the black backs of black people across this country and if we don't have it you ain't going to have it either cos we going to tear it up. That's what they saying. And people ought to understand that. I don't see why they don't understand it. All across this country, they know what they've done to us." --Mrs Fannie Lou Hamer

"The Governor of Michigan should give a little, and put out the fire. These are very good people, but they are angry. They want their lives back again, safely! See them, talk to them, make a deal" --Donald Trump, on white rioters

"...These THUGS are dishonoring the memory of George Floyd, and I won't let that happen. Just spoke to Governor Tim Walz and told him the Military is with him all the way. Any difficulty and we will assume control but, when the looting starts, the shooting starts. Thank you!" --Donald Trump, on black rioters.

"Before I get to that, how would you define somebody who puts a cat where he is and takes all the money out of the ghetto where he makes it? Who is looting whom? Grabbing off the TV set? He doesn't really want the TV set. He's saying screw you. It's just judgment, by the way, on the value of the TV set. He doesn't want it. He wants to let you know he's there. The question I'm trying to raise is a very serious question. The mass media-television and all the major news agencies-endlessly use that word "looter." On television you always see black hands reaching in, you know. And so the American public concludes that these savages are trying to steal everything from us, And no one has seriously tried to get where the trouble is. After all, you're accusing a captive population who has been robbed of everything of looting. I think it's obscene." --James Baldwin 1968

Any picture of the rioters/looters will show you they are people of all races. Not just black people.
If someone is unhappy about not being listened to and their response is to burn down half a neighborhood in my city maybe there was a good reason we weren’t listening to everything they had to say. They don’t seem interested in reasoning, only in taking what they want by force.

The armed protesters in Michigan were being jackasses but afaik they didn’t start looting or committing arson (or even hurt anyone for that matter). There is no equivalence here, it’s just as much a bullshit “both sides” argument as the one trump made three years ago.

Well, obviously that's not a reasonable first reaction, but if all the reasonable avenues of getting people's grievances addressed have not succeeded, then it's kind of inevitable that it will escalate to unreasonable responses.
A large number of the same people that now are saying that of course peaceful protest would have been enough and been respected (including high-ranking members of the current US administration) were insulting, ignoring, or calling for punishment for people that did peaceful protests in the past, e.g. by kneeling at football matches. What was the "good reason" to not listen then?
> If someone is unhappy about not being listened to and their response is to burn down half a neighborhood in my city maybe there was a good reason we weren’t listening to everything they had to say.

They were saying “don’t kill me”. This argument is blatantly racist.

For many white people that "good reason" not to listen is simply that they are poor and black. You ignore the innate institutional racism and assume the everyone can have a civil conversation. Some people just want to hate
Others have mentioned the air-to-ground missile problem, but my question is: “what does CBP have to do with this?” Border Patrol’s job is to, unsurprisingly, patrol the border, as in, the national border.

Even with the “100 mile zone”, Minneapolis is more than 200 miles inland.

Which is a great point, a lot of their jurisdiction is supposed to end 100 miles in, so what surveillance rights do they have to the interior?
My guess is that the drone is owned by the border patrol but currently used/controlled by a different agency. Like the national guard or police. I.e. border patrol lend it to them.

But this still shows how broken this is because now you have a drone survilence by some agency but people don't know which one and maybe a violation of responsibilities if it's actually operated by the border protection...

Well, are there any international airports in a 100 mile radius of Minneapolis?
> Downvote me into oblivion (like I see some folks already are - classy)

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html "Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading."

Fair, fixed.
The issue is there is no transparency about what is happening with the data that is being collected.
Would it be any different if it was a police helicopter manned with a guy with a video camera?
Well, first I can almost guarantee that the surveillance tech being employed on a predator drone is substantially more advanced and wide ranging than a simple human operated video camera, but I also don't think it's a good idea to have guys with video cameras in helicopters recording protests either unless it's to film illegality. It has a chilling effect on the exercise of free speech. Peaceful protesters really shouldn't be getting surveiled / data gathered during protests shouldn't be getting mined, and unless authorities can guarantee that isn't happening then recording makes me uncomfortable.
Yes, because a police helicopter is different for two reasons: (1) it’s not operated by CBP (who have no jurisdiction here), and (2) a police helicopter doesn’t have Hellfire missile bays.
Putting aside the CBP issue (fair point, agreed, that's weird), it's not like police helicopters haven't been used for pretty bad things in the past - e.g. when Philadelphia firebombed it's citizens in the 80s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE

Such a weird way of putting police reaper drones into context.
Do you have any issue with reporting the fact of and details of the surveillance?
Apply that same question to every other type of police surveillance. Why is this materially different?
It both is and is not different. It's different because of the obvious riots.

But it's not different in the long: we should be aware of mass surveillance, because it can affect freedom of association (chilling), and can advance government abuse.

Citizens should always watch the government, so that we have a chance to rein them in. Its our government, not the other way around.

Predator drones can carry multiple air to ground missiles and guided bombs. This is the same model of drone which is used for drone strikes in the Middle East. There is no reasonable reason for a domestic civilian agency to own or use these drones over US soil vs models which are incapable of carrying armament.
I think the capability of carrying armament is irrelevant as long as it isn't actually carrying weapons. Anything can be retrofitted, and even without modifications any aircraft is a weapon in and of itself.

From CBP's standpoint, it makes sense. What other unmanned aircraft could carry the same sensor package, while also being incapable of being armed? There's the Global Hawk, which costs about 10x more than a Reaper.

There's a reason that a civilian agency like NASA owns so many fighter jets (F-15/16s). R&D is expensive and there's no need to reinvent the wheel. (Also worth noting-- NASA also owns some Predator drones)

> There is no reasonable reason for a domestic civilian agency to own or use these drones over US soil vs models which are incapable of carrying armament.

This is a model which is incapable of carrying armament.

CBP drones do not carry missiles. There are definitely reasons to use the predator drone vs non-armament capable drones. One such reason is cost. The predator drone Is lower cost and has much better performance to cost ratio compared to other options, such as Northrop Grumman global hawk.
I'm aware of that, but it's extremely, extremely unlikely that this drone is carrying any sort of missiles. I can't prove that for certain, but let's be realistic here. The government could in theory drive a ballistic missile launcher hidden in an 18-wheeler into any major US city - should we not allow trucks on the road?
Pointing a gun at someone is a threat even if you say it's unloaded. The US government should not be threatening its citizens.

> The government could in theory drive a ballistic missile launcher hidden in an 18-wheeler into any major US city - should we not allow trucks on the road?

This is a straw man, the Predator is a weapons platform, nothing is being hidden here.

A police helicopter manned with police officers with long guns is a weapons platform too. What's the difference?
Police helicopters don’t regularly kill dozens of people. The helicopter is more akin to a cop walking around with a sidearm. Still not great, but less overtly threatening.
Drones don't regularly kill dozens of people in the US either.

Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE

That’s a false equivalence. The difference with your truck argument is that this air vehicle is specifically designed to monitor and shoot missiles at targets (“extrajudicial killings” is the phrase used). A truck carrying a missile launcher is different because trucks weren’t created will the express purpose of carrying missile launchers.
Except there's simply no way (short of the US falling into a total dystopian future) that someone is going to launch a missile on the Mall of America this week from this drone. Again - let's be realistic here.
> should we not allow trucks on the road?

Perhaps not ones designed for carrying ballistic missiles.

Though this still isn't a perfect comparison because it ignores the fact that drone usage can be targeted to individuals, which is a factor that makes it more dangerous in our context of homeland operations.

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