Italian here, north-west. Media are really exaggerating with the situation with daily life and routine, we are allowed to take a walk and go to bars or restaurants if there is one meter of distance between people.
The real problem is in the hospitals, and for some enterprises who will really have a loss in these weeks (everything about tourism, for example).
One of the biggest downsides is that people are not allowed to visit relatives or families in other cities/villages, even if a few kilometers away.
We've been promised discounts, taxes, even free subscriptions for ebooks... this lockdown is not so bad, the important is that people really understand why it has been implemented (people here in Italy tend to overreact for every news - it's always apocalyptic).
Tbh, i think we should employ wuhan-style lockdowns globally as early as possible to reduce the rate of infection as low as possible for some defined time span (e.g. for 2 weeks). After this the number of people requiring ICU should be known and stable, and then lift the lockdowns appropriately according to the percentage of people requiring intensive care.
I live in germany and currently it seems we're approaching that. The US still seems to be in denial.
The risk is that this lockdown isn't sufficient to modify the progression of the epidemic. Then it will probably have to be modified.
Presumably, most transmission is happening in social settings and closed environments. These measures should mitigate that. The change in social behavior would suggest it's working. We'll find out in five days or so if this is working.
It's worked elsewhere so there is good reason to hope that it will work in Italy as well. It sucks that we have to wait five days to find out though. What I wouldn't give for a crystal ball right now.
A lockdown has worked in only one place: China. And it worked because the measures were extreme: not allowing people to leave their homes (except once a week to go shopping), banning cars on the roads, closing workplaces, etc.
No country is implementing measures nearly as extreme as China, so they won't be as successful in slowing down the epidemic.
Before someone mentions South Korea: Korean CDC explained their epidemic curve is bending because they are finishing testing the 200,000 sect members at the center of the epidemic. So fewer tests = fewer detected infections: "in Daegu and Gyeongbuk region, the transmission seems a bit slow down as testing Shincheonji members is almost finished" Source: https://www.cdc.go.kr/board/board.es?mid=a30402000000&bid=00... In other words this is NOT a sign Korea is succeeding at containing it. I have seen zero epidemiologists correctly report on this. They all fail to read what KCDC is saying.
The crucial thing is that the daily growth rate in South Korea averaged over the last 7 days is 1.05 and sinking, a far cry from the stable ~1.33 average in European countries with significant outbreaks.
It's outrageous to me that you are still commenting on this after so many people here debunked you (and were thoroughly proven right by now) when you were claiming apocalyptic CFR numbers.
It's true that it's only really worked in China so far, at least only that we know of positively. But there is also some research coming out suggesting that some of the measures China took were more effective than other ones. In any case, I said there is a reason for hope, not a reason for certainty. We will see how effective Italy's measures are.
It worked in China because they really enforce drastic measures. People must stay at home, everybody outside wears a mask (they're made in China, we don't have any), streets, transport & supermarkets are disinfected daily, people who leave hospital have even clothes disinfected etc.
> One of the biggest downsides is that people are not allowed to visit relatives or families in other cities/villages, even if a few kilometers away.
How does this affect people who depend on personal care from relatives and friends to do daily activities like cooking, cleaning themselves and going to the toilet?
>Italian here, north-west. Media are really exaggerating with the situation with daily life and routine, we are allowed to take a walk and go to bars or restaurants if there is one meter of distance between people.
That seems ... like it would be really hard to do consistently adhere to and enforce, especially when it goes against social conventions and the places fill up to capacity.
Elevating threat perception for everything has become a daily occurance. One day it's North Korea nukes. Another day it's Russians. Another it's Iran. Another day it's climate, #metoo, immigrants, shooters etc etc.
I grew up at a time where the threats were even worse but we weren't surrounded by unqualified people falling over each other inducing anxiety in everyone as a full time job.
I think journos need to be kicked off social media or put in timeout zones after a particular message has saturated the network (can be easily be auto triggered). They are trapped by the dynamics of getting likes/views/clicks. Most of them I feel are loosing their minds and are on auto pilot. By themselves they can't exist that trap.
Cable TV news was a massive experiment to try and find out if there is actually 24 hours' worth of news that happens every day. One which failed to reject the null hypothesis.
Social media journalism is merely a replication study.
In case of this pandemia exaggeration can have positive influence because people have natural tendency to underestimate how easily common cold and flu spreads.
A lockdown is obviously not an enjoyable thing, but it is necessary to flatten the curve [^1] and it's downsides are less severe then it's benefits if done correctly.
Keep this in mind as the situation continues to evolve. Stock things in your house which bring you joy (good food, games, good books) and do your best to spread confidence to others around you. If you have enough space to get in some exercise, even if it's just pushups and situps, do so. If you are working from home, do your best to have a clearly defined time for your work and separate your working space from your leisure space as much as practical. If you've been thinking about writing a book or starting a new blog, now is a good time to do so.
It may not be enjoyable but it is necessary. Make the best use of this time you can.
It would probably be in bad taste to theme it so...on the nose, but I'd believe that it's a good time to be releasing a fresh game right now. It's certainly a terrible time for games in development, with work collaboration maybe disrupted and with all the big publicity events getting cancelled, and it's a bad time for other media that bank a lot on physical releases (e.g. theatrical releases for movies getting pushed back), but the at-home media out now could find an audience with more time than they otherwise might have.
I don't think it would be in bad taste if it's clearly hyperbolic and perhaps it is coupled with informational messages. PornHub is famous for doing this.
There's also a funeral services company in Rome whose death-themed ads have become a meme ("don't worry antivaxers, we will always be ready to help if you die"), we love it. :-)
Antivaxxers are generally not liked very much; it’s fairly “safe” to make fun of them. Doing so for coronavirus when people have family members who may have it is significantly less so.
I think if they just did zombie games it could be construed as making light of the situation and get them some backlash. Broader discounts and some signalling that the intent is to encourage people to stay inside more might work though.
As a side note, maybe the single restaurant manager interviewed does normally that, but it is highly unusual that a restaurant manager hugs and/or kisses (or even shakes hands) with a customer of the restaurant.
There is this sort of folklore about Italy that everyone kisses and hugs everyone else.
This is simply not accurate.
If you are introduced to someone (a stranger), it is normal courtesy to shake hands with him/her (and that's it, no hugs, no kisses), as well, unless the other person is an old friend the normal shaking of hands is the normal means of greeting.
It is extremely rare that you are touched (again let alone hugged or kissed) as a customer when you enter any shop or similar.
> If you are introduced to someone (a stranger), it is normal courtesy to shake hands with him/her (and that's it, no hugs, no kisses), as well, unless the other person is an old friend the normal shaking of hands is the normal means of greeting.
In northern Italy, most of the times. In southern Italy, kissing is much more common and it's often used even in formal environments. Shaking hands it's seen as polite but cold.
The stereotypical Italian is, for many reasons, the southern Italian, hence the kissing meme and other exaggerations that really do not apply to northern Italy.
Why are we talking about strangers when the context was a restaurant manager greeting customers? Every decent restaurant that's been open for any length of time has a large number of regular customers.
And - again - regular customers are NOT normally hugged or kissed by the restaurant manager as a "standard" form of greeting, UNLESS they are - besides regular customers - also "friends" (and even that is not "common").
> If you are introduced to someone (a stranger), it is normal courtesy to shake hands with him/her (and that's it, no hugs, no kisses)
Are you sure you aren't extending the culture of northern Italy to all of Italy?
When I lived in Rome/Naples, it seemed like with almost everyone I met we shook hands and did the "air kisses" (not a real kiss but you still lean in close and touch cheeks).
It didn't ever happen to me with restaurant owners, sure, but then again I never really interacted with anyone other than the waiter/waitress/cashier. I could see it happening in a super small hole-in-the-wall mom and pop type restaurant though.
I am from Rome, the cheek kiss is common amongst people who know each other, and sometimes it applies "transitively" (e.g. a friend's partner which you don't know), but it is definitely not done when meeting random people at work.
You could be kissing someone on the cheek coming in your restaurant if you are familiar with them, but it's not very common.
>Are you sure you aren't extending the culture of northern Italy to all of Italy?
Yes, I am pretty sure, as a matter of fact I am more familiar with non-Northern Italy habits, as I am Italian (from the center and living in the center) but I have lived years in the South and also some time in Rome and near Naples.
Again I am not talking of people you know and are friend with, I am talking of:
1 - people that have just been introduced to you
2 - normal greetings between people that meet in commercial or professional environments
The case of:
>I could see it happening in a super small hole-in-the-wall mom and pop type restaurant though.
can surely happen, but it is not common/everyday as the folklore might lead to believe.
Based on context in the article, it seems to me that the owner is probably not talking about his interaction with customers, but that in his private life.
Another Italian here. The situation is far from dramatic. Yes, being forced at home unless necessary is an inconvenience, but damn worth the risk of catching the virus or worse infecting others. We can work from home, and this for many of us is a first and indeed something we can leverage when things go back to normal. We can still go to the doctor, or grocery shopping, bars and restaurants are still open.
This kind of reporting seems counterproductive. A more helpful headline would be something like, “In locked down Italy, life is mostly normal.” The body of the article is OK, but the tone seems intentionally negative when the same facts could easily have been presented hopefully.
One of my biggest concerns is that places in the United States, or other countries, will adopt aggressive social distancing policies early, while the number of cases is low, and then the backlash against those policies will be that “this is hell, and the virus isn’t even affecting that many people.” That can lead to pressure to drop the policies prematurely when the virus is nowhere near contained yet.
This is a great opportunity for responsible journalism to strike a tone of optimistic “we are all in this together, it is very serious, but if we all do the right thing we should be OK.” Fear mongering on the one hand, or dismissal and backlash on the other, are both extremely harmful — But good for Clickbait and selling ads. We really need the media to resist that during this emergency.
The real problem is in the hospitals, and for some enterprises who will really have a loss in these weeks (everything about tourism, for example). One of the biggest downsides is that people are not allowed to visit relatives or families in other cities/villages, even if a few kilometers away.
We've been promised discounts, taxes, even free subscriptions for ebooks... this lockdown is not so bad, the important is that people really understand why it has been implemented (people here in Italy tend to overreact for every news - it's always apocalyptic).
I live in germany and currently it seems we're approaching that. The US still seems to be in denial.
Presumably, most transmission is happening in social settings and closed environments. These measures should mitigate that. The change in social behavior would suggest it's working. We'll find out in five days or so if this is working.
No country is implementing measures nearly as extreme as China, so they won't be as successful in slowing down the epidemic.
Before someone mentions South Korea: Korean CDC explained their epidemic curve is bending because they are finishing testing the 200,000 sect members at the center of the epidemic. So fewer tests = fewer detected infections: "in Daegu and Gyeongbuk region, the transmission seems a bit slow down as testing Shincheonji members is almost finished" Source: https://www.cdc.go.kr/board/board.es?mid=a30402000000&bid=00... In other words this is NOT a sign Korea is succeeding at containing it. I have seen zero epidemiologists correctly report on this. They all fail to read what KCDC is saying.
It's outrageous to me that you are still commenting on this after so many people here debunked you (and were thoroughly proven right by now) when you were claiming apocalyptic CFR numbers.
Nothing like this happens in EU or USA :(
How does this affect people who depend on personal care from relatives and friends to do daily activities like cooking, cleaning themselves and going to the toilet?
Reasons to travel might be ex. work
That seems ... like it would be really hard to do consistently adhere to and enforce, especially when it goes against social conventions and the places fill up to capacity.
(The comments from Finns on r/europe are hilarious)
(I'm half serious there, if the mask was fabric or plastic, it'd be safe, otherwise nope.)
I am glad it isn't--for you. Other people's mileage might vary
Elevating threat perception for everything has become a daily occurance. One day it's North Korea nukes. Another day it's Russians. Another it's Iran. Another day it's climate, #metoo, immigrants, shooters etc etc.
I grew up at a time where the threats were even worse but we weren't surrounded by unqualified people falling over each other inducing anxiety in everyone as a full time job.
I think journos need to be kicked off social media or put in timeout zones after a particular message has saturated the network (can be easily be auto triggered). They are trapped by the dynamics of getting likes/views/clicks. Most of them I feel are loosing their minds and are on auto pilot. By themselves they can't exist that trap.
Social media journalism is merely a replication study.
Keep this in mind as the situation continues to evolve. Stock things in your house which bring you joy (good food, games, good books) and do your best to spread confidence to others around you. If you have enough space to get in some exercise, even if it's just pushups and situps, do so. If you are working from home, do your best to have a clearly defined time for your work and separate your working space from your leisure space as much as practical. If you've been thinking about writing a book or starting a new blog, now is a good time to do so.
It may not be enjoyable but it is necessary. Make the best use of this time you can.
[^1]: https://www.flattenthecurve.com/
There's also a funeral services company in Rome whose death-themed ads have become a meme ("don't worry antivaxers, we will always be ready to help if you die"), we love it. :-)
(translation: "stay at home or we will all end up in a box")
There is this sort of folklore about Italy that everyone kisses and hugs everyone else.
This is simply not accurate.
If you are introduced to someone (a stranger), it is normal courtesy to shake hands with him/her (and that's it, no hugs, no kisses), as well, unless the other person is an old friend the normal shaking of hands is the normal means of greeting.
It is extremely rare that you are touched (again let alone hugged or kissed) as a customer when you enter any shop or similar.
In northern Italy, most of the times. In southern Italy, kissing is much more common and it's often used even in formal environments. Shaking hands it's seen as polite but cold.
The stereotypical Italian is, for many reasons, the southern Italian, hence the kissing meme and other exaggerations that really do not apply to northern Italy.
Again, we are not talking of old friends, we are talking of strangers.
Even in the south (I lived in sicily almost 15 years) it is not at all common.
Are you sure you aren't extending the culture of northern Italy to all of Italy?
When I lived in Rome/Naples, it seemed like with almost everyone I met we shook hands and did the "air kisses" (not a real kiss but you still lean in close and touch cheeks).
It didn't ever happen to me with restaurant owners, sure, but then again I never really interacted with anyone other than the waiter/waitress/cashier. I could see it happening in a super small hole-in-the-wall mom and pop type restaurant though.
You could be kissing someone on the cheek coming in your restaurant if you are familiar with them, but it's not very common.
Yes, I am pretty sure, as a matter of fact I am more familiar with non-Northern Italy habits, as I am Italian (from the center and living in the center) but I have lived years in the South and also some time in Rome and near Naples.
Again I am not talking of people you know and are friend with, I am talking of:
1 - people that have just been introduced to you
2 - normal greetings between people that meet in commercial or professional environments
The case of:
>I could see it happening in a super small hole-in-the-wall mom and pop type restaurant though.
can surely happen, but it is not common/everyday as the folklore might lead to believe.
One of my biggest concerns is that places in the United States, or other countries, will adopt aggressive social distancing policies early, while the number of cases is low, and then the backlash against those policies will be that “this is hell, and the virus isn’t even affecting that many people.” That can lead to pressure to drop the policies prematurely when the virus is nowhere near contained yet.
This is a great opportunity for responsible journalism to strike a tone of optimistic “we are all in this together, it is very serious, but if we all do the right thing we should be OK.” Fear mongering on the one hand, or dismissal and backlash on the other, are both extremely harmful — But good for Clickbait and selling ads. We really need the media to resist that during this emergency.