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saurik parent
We believe, as do many people as far as I have seen, that if a country like China could block the entire world of Internet, they would. Regardless: I consider it my mission to make them have to seriously consider doing just that, and if I read a news report saying "in a shocking turn of events, China has decided to cut off all access to the Western Internet in an attempt to shut down Orchid", I will consider myself to have won that round, not lost ;P.
TeMPOraL
> We believe, as do many people as far as I have seen, that if a country like China could block the entire world of Internet, they would.

I don't feel this is a correct belief. China is a secular nation state, not a religious cult. They don't block parts of internet out of ideology, but for political and economical reasons. Cutting off the Internet, even if within realm of possibility for them, doesn't make economical or political sense.

paradite
> I will consider myself to have won that round, not lost ;P.

If fame and victory are what your company is going after, instead of taking care of your potential users, then I am sorry that you won't have my support.

Btw, thank you for creating cydia if you were the author.

saurik OP
To "win" here means "win a battle on the road to an Internet free of surveillance". I (personally) firmly believe that if China were to do that, that the people would not stand for it; any form of "half solution" or "compromise position" where the Chinese govnerment can block just enough to remove access to material that bothers them while only minority inconveniencing users, is a world in which this form of freedom is actually less likely, as people are willing to tolerate a sad lot before try finally snap back :/.

It is also worth noting that if they went that far, at least some of the other Western countries that are currently willing to tolerate their seemingly-limited control over the Internet would no longer feel comfortable standing idly by and might have to start making resolutions against them. Again: forcing that chess move from them would, in my (personal) book, be a strong win in this fight.

FWIW, you seem to be taking a very short-term definition of "taking care of your potential users" that I have sometimes seen in attempts to make excuses for Apple over the past decade of my work on Cydia (such as when I have stated that one of my "win conditions" for Cydia Impactor is for Apple to remove entirely the Free Developer profile system), and I (personally: I do not speak for anyone else on my team when I say this) do not feel the loss of your support on this particular day (though maintain hope that in a few years you will thank us as you have now me for Cydia).

paradite
I think you might have misunderstood what I mean by "taking care of your potential users". It is not a short-term definition. On the contrary, I want a long-term solution, where users trust the platform that your company provides, trust that your company will be there for the users when Chinese government bans your software, instead of celebrating the ban as a success and call it a day (like what Google did).

To celebrate the banning of your platform would be what I call a short-term solution, because in the long run, it is merely a temporary attempt at solving the problem, that people will eventually forget when a long-term solution prevails. Chinese people, from all spectrum of political views alike, do not thank Google for exiting China, because it does not solve their problem. The act merely throws the problem into limbo state awaiting for other people to solve.

Also, I think you mixed up "support" and "gratitude". I thank you for creating Cydia as well as attempting to solve this problem with surveillance and censorship, as always. However, I disagree with your approach and therefore will not support this platform unless I can see that you have something bigger in mind beyond "celebrating being banned".

saurik OP
What you are asking for--somehow being immune to China deciding to ban the entire Internet--is an apology for China's behavior and fundamentally, plain and simple.

After all, what is the alternative? In the case of Google, the other option you seem to think is reasonable is for them to censor themselves... but that is a loss... that is in fact the primary loss condition.

That said, was Google leaving China the same kind of win for the Internet as what I am even talking about? No, because Google is but one company. My win condition is "China is forced to block some incredibly large percentage of the entire Western Internet", not "they block us" or "they block a few websites".

Google gave up long before I would say they won: their next step should have been to start doing exactly what we are now doing, shipping it as part of Google Chrome, and figuring out ways to distribute copies of the software in China.

There is a big difference between "celebrating being banned" and "celebrating your opponent being forced to make the difficult decision between salting their own earth to keep you from invading or accepting defeat".

This is all particularly the case given that my argument is rather consistent here that that won't happen: that China can't do that, as that is just too drastic of a move and it will cost them the support of businesses, citizens, and governments.

As for your final paragraph, every single decision made about Cydia was made within this moral framework... one which you do not support. You either should not be thanking me for what I did while working on it if you fundamentally refuse to support my methods and goals.

Honestly: it sounds like you would have preferred a world where I built a centralized Cydia and allowed Apple's censors access to the catalog... that completely misses the point of Cydia, so I don't know what you possibly wanted. With this attitude I not only don't feel the need to have you support Orchid, I would like to hand you back your false gratitude for Cydia :(.

mbid
So most people in China seem to have come to the conclusion that the status quo of having filtered access to the internet of the Western world is preferable to actively fighting the regime that implements these filters (which comes with significant risk, obviously). You want to try make this compromise impossible, so that these people, bereft of their preferred choice, "snap back" at their government. After all, this is obviously the better alternative to the decision those stupid obedient Chinese people made, and one that wouldn't even affect your personal well-being much apart from some potential economical turmoil.

I'm glad that it is ridiculously unlikely you "win".

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